Fun Times at the ER

So yesterday I got to spend the entire day in a fabulous downtown emergency room. What fun!

I’ve been having a blinding headache nearly every day from about 11am until about 4pm since I got home from the hospital. I kept asking my doctors about it, and they didn’t seem that alarmed until it had been going on for nearly two weeks. While my GP wanted to continue to ignore the headaches, my OB was a bit freaked out. He tried to just schedule a cat scan for me, but since my insurance is an HMO and we all know that HMOs are run by small minded little number crunching people that look like naked mole rats, and try really hard to prevent you from doing anything that would cost them money, I had to go through the ER and waste everyone’s time instead.

Sigh.

So after getting to listen to a strapped down homeless man sing “New York, New York” at the top of his lungs for three hours (and intermittingly shout “God damn it!” a sentimet with which I heartily agreed), I got my cat scan. I didn’t even get a room, it was that crowded. I had a bed in a hallway. Until they ran out of beds and made me go sit in the lobby while they waited for my cat scan results.

The TV in the lobby was showing an episode of “Strong Medicine,” a crappy Lifetime medical show. Guess what the topic was?

It was an episode where a woman gives birth to IVF twins, only to discover that one of the babies isn’t hers (they know because the baby’s African-American, and she’s white). And she and the boy’s biological mother, another infertile woman, spend the rest of the show fighting over who gets the baby. I shit you not.

Eventually, the lovely doctor (he really was nice) came out and told me my brain was fine. That I should take Advil with my Excedrin migraine, and follow up with a neurologist about whether or not I need migraine medication.

Yee-fucking-ha. When will the side effects go away?

And that brings up another subject.

I’m feeling a little bitter these days.

This quote is from a troll that posted on Tertia’s blog:

“I find it ironic that people are praying to God when God had nothing to do with these pregnancies. When Cecily wanted to be pregnant, God had an answer, and that answer was "no." Who needs God, when there's IVF? Perhaps God, in His infinite wisdom, was trying to keep her from having precisely this kind of tragedy?"

What bothers me about this statement is that there is a part of me, larger than I’d like to admit, that thinks she is dead-on correct.

In recovery, it’s said that God has three answers to prayers: “Yes,” “Maybe,” and “Not now.” But more often than not for me, the answer is “Are you out of your fucking mind? Of course not!”

I’m getting pretty pissed off about it.

The other thing that keeps coming up in my mind is that to some extent this is all my fault.

Because I’m fat.

Since fat chicks like me are considered to be at a higher risk of preeclampsia, there is some merit to this argument, although I’m sure many of you will tell me that you or people you know who went through preeclampsia actually only weigh 23 lbs, 28lbs at the time of giving birth, but still—the doctors say it’s a risk, so I believe them.

It’s so easy to slide into self-blame. It’s a comfortable spot for me, especially when it comes to my weight. I’ve tried so hard these last six years to come to terms with my overeating. I’ve never been able to successfully combat it for more than a year, and I’ve never successfully gotten under 200lbs. The pain becomes too great, and food makes me feel better. I don’t have cigarettes, drugs, alcohol, or sex with random strangers anymore to fill that space. The only thing I have left is food, food, food.

The thing about all my other addictions, of course, is that I can survive without ingesting whatever substance it is. No one needs heroin or Old Granddad to live; but food, well, you gotta eat. If I could get some sort of implants that provided me with sufficient nutrition, and allowed me to abstain from eating entirely, I think I might be able to actually get a handle on this.

I know I want to spend this time of healing losing weight. But I still find myself reaching for food to soothe my grief and rage. I have to make a decision to change, but I’m unwilling to give up this last little crutch, even though this crutch may have played a role in killing my babies. And nearly killing me.

God damn it.

Well, writing about this will surely shake something loose. I’ve also a member of a recovery group that deals with this specifically, so that will help too. But I’m tired of feeling shitty about myself. I really am.

Comments

[Sarah]

1.

Excellent post. You know that on that preclampsia.org site, they debunk the myth that women who are overweight have a higher risk. Turns out, the rates of it in Ethiopia are the SAME as here in the US. And we all know there are no fat Ethiopians.

Just saying.

I love you, please be patient with yourself through this. Get a little comfort where you need it, now, if it is food. (As long as it isn't whiskey or heroin, Girl!)
It's only been a very short time. Grief SUCKS ASS, but you have already proven to me you can do anything. You can do this too.

Love, Sarah

[Sheri]

2.

Cecily - I'm right there with you on the eating and weight issue. I remember/identify different times in my life with what size I was wearing - how f*cked up is that? Be kind to yourself and I think as long as your healthy & happy....the size thing doesn't matter. Both of my sisters are those 120lb, eat whatever they want type of people. I can gain weight just TALKING about it....up 2lbs as I type this. sucks

I love your blog and I love the daffodil picture but miss your smiling face one too.

Continued peace to you...

[sandy]

3.

Ahh, yes. Fat. The final frontier. I don't know what to say. I've been at this a long time and still don't have a handle on it.

I do love your poem accepting your body but having the fantasy about waking up from a coma and finding yourself thin. You hit that one perfectly.

[dish]

4.

Powerful post. Not sure what I can say (trying desparately to avoid assvice), so just letting you know I'm here.

[Keith of R.Electrons]

5.

"No one needs heroin or Old Granddad to live; but food, well, you gotta eat."

I've said almost the exact same words for a long time. It is sooo true!

I even managed to lose weight on Atkins. But Atkins has some problems. Not only does it release toxins into your bloodstream, it takes away something critical. You no longer are eating much 'comfort food'. Your brain needs foods with real carbs to send comfort chemicals to your brain. That is the basis for some anti-anxiety meds: they help your brain absort comfort chemicals. But if you are on Atkins, you are starving your body of comfort chemicals.
And on Atkins, my world view was so distorted! It was like a mental version of tunnel vision. I was grumpy and unhappy. Going into a supermarket and seeing most of the store as forbidden was torture.

I've lost weight in the past by walking - a huge amount. But I don't have time for that now. I have enough trouble making hours at work and getting half the stuff I seem to be expected to do at home.

[Orodemniades]

6.

And fat people are responsible for La Nina, tornadoes, the falling cod population, and the impending supernoval of our sun.

Just so y'know.

the extremely well fed Oro

[roseisarose]

7.

Oh Dear.

How is it that everything that happens has to be the fault of the mother or mother to be? I think that as a society we have a freudian hangover.

One of the things that just kills me about infertility is that so many of the women I know (or read) just tear themselves apart trying to figure out what they did to cause this.

The medical model bases a lot of things on statistics and it is so clear that we don't have all the information.

I don't think we have the answers about infertility yet, anywhere near. And I don't think we have the answers about weight gain/weight loss either.

Overweight people get pregnant and have babies all the time.

Anyway, this is a long post and probably not very helpful, and what I really want to say is please be good to yourself and try not to read too much into the trolls. In such a difficult time, it is so hard not to pick up whatever we can use to hurt ourselves most.

Love, Rose

[ann]

8.

Coming out of lurkdom to first of all say that I am so, so sorry for your terrible ordeal with losing (for lack of a better verb) your dear sons Nicholas and Zachary.
As one who has been through hell with the loss of 3 babes, each situation different, but one a full term stillbirth for which my body may be to blame, I can relate to the blame game and the God query, too.
I prefer to think of God as more in the Harold Kushner (When Bad Things Happen to Good People) helping-us-get-through- terrible-events style rather than as an All Powerful Being causing things to happen to some and not to others. Before reading Kushner, I was obsessing about Why Me/Why US more than was healthy.
I'm resisting the urge to tell you not to be too hard on yourself because searching for answers is such a vital part of coming to some kind of #$^%%^ grip with what's happened. But as with something like preeclampsia, the thing is there are so many unknowns. One doc will tell you one thing and another something different. Part of my healing is coming to terms with never having answers for what caused some of what happened. Sucks. Many hugs and much strength for dealing with all that you're going through. There is no way through it but through it. Again, I'm so sorry.

[eightlegs]

9.

Let me get this straight.. as if losing weight is hard enough by itself, you want to do this while trying to overcome the unimaginable grief of losing your boys...

Ok, to quote "god":
“Are you out of your fucking mind?"

The fact that you got up enough energy and clear headedness to type this post is beyond me. Don't be so hard on yourself.. ok, screw that, easier said than done. I spent several years myself trying to figure out what "substance" I ingested in my youth would have caused my own IF/losses... but it's futile.. you can't fix this and you DIDN't cause this. It sucks, and it just happened.

Work right now on just getting out of bed every morning. That alone is a major accomplishment. When you're feeling a little more like you again, then worry about the diet... but geez, for now... take it easy!

Go break some stuff... bowls make nice smashy noises but plates throw further...

[Sara]

10.

Oh Cecily...

Oh, how those who claim to know Gods will and interpret it to others (always, it seems, to others in soul-crushing pain) drive me to homicidal thoughts.

When my grandmother lay dying, having bled so much internally that her hemocrit was at a level that should not have been survivable, yet there she was, conscious, telling people "I'm ready to die anytime" and yet not dying -- some of those sanctimonious Church Lady types told me "Oh, god must have some special reason to keep her alive." WTF? You're sayign she's suffering all this for what? To try to convert that evil night nurse to Christianity? Wouldn't a face on the side of a tortilla have been easier?

And if pre-eclampsia is a message from God, what about the woman I know who went into full-blown eclampsia delivering her 4th? Who nearly died, and who was told she shouldn't think of pregnancy again for at least 2 years because they had to slash her open six different ways to get the baby out? If God sends warnings, what bigger warning to *stop* is that? Yet she ignored that warning, somehow got PG while still on morphine for the previous surgery (can't deny the Husband his Marital Rights, after all, and birth control is evil) ... and DIDN'T have eclampsia or die during the subsequent pregnancy. She ignored a bigass warning from The Big Man... and while I"m sure her family credits her survival to their prayers, I personally credit it to a piece of f*cking luck.

And you, you just had a piece of very BAD f*cking luck. That's what it was. A set of circumstances and small events that led to one heartbreaking big event. I don't think God sends pre-eclampsia as a punishment for those who don't listen to his carefully placed "infertility warnings.' As a matter of fact, i don't think God *sends* infertility warnings. IF isn't some kind of morse code from On High for "you're not deserving." It is, again, just dumb, freaking, luck.

I'm so sorry, Cecily. I've been following your blog since a few months before you got PG with the boys. I was so happy that it was working out for you, and I'm so, so, sorry for your loss.

[Cricket]

11.

Also delurking here...

This post of yours goes to show what a great mom you are; you've got the guilt thing down pat. You're one of the strongest people I have ever "known." Strong people are not without doubt or guilt, they're just better at identifying, facing, and processing it.

Last year, I lost well on the Fat Flush Plan; there is a great website fatflush.com w/lots of support. (Stupid name but w/PhD nutritionist-created guidance) There are a couple books you can buy, too. It is complicated and I felt like I was constantly shoving food/supplements in my face, but it does work. It is also very well balanced, but the food is mostly unprocessed, so it requires effort - I did freeze a lot so I could have insty food when I wanted.

All my best...

[Lisa]

12.

I hate that people treat God as if she were a narrow minded juvenille delinquent. God doesn't punish people, and I am sorry if some loser has made you think you are in need of punishment. Cecily you are a worthy person; worthy of raising children. You didn't deserve this and neither did your husband or your sons. Sweetie, for lack of a better way to say it, bad shit happens and I don't know why. I don't think anyone really does. The best we can do is make peace with it, some how, some way.
And as the fat, well stress makes me lose weight, but that is about it. Lost 40 lbs last year, and I am gaining it back now. Something with that fat and happy with me. I just have to be a grown up and take resposnibilty for my crummy eating and excercise habits. If I were you, I would do what I can and cut yourself a break when you can't. It will work out.
I hope the headaches go away.

[Laurie G]

13.

It's great to set the goal for yourself to lose weight and get as healthy as you can before you attempt pregnancy again, but it just can't be your primary focus right now. It's like anything else in recovery. One day at a time, putting it on the shelf until you can face it safely and all that crap. When I had my miscarriage (which was not as late or dramatic as your situation and I don't mean to compare)I was determined to lose the weight immediately. It seemed like such added insult to injury to be carrying around baby weight and to have no baby to show for it. But, each time I tried to focus on losing weight I felt punished. And I was doing it to myself. "You mean, I have no baby and I can't even have this fucking cupcake? Are you kidding?" It's six months later now and I've lost a majority of the baby weight through gentle and slow measures. It's so horrible, what you've been through. And the horrible will last a good long while. It's so hard to find comfort. Please allow yourself those little things that soothe you for now. (Heroin and Wild Turkey excluded)
I'm thinking of you.
Laurie G

[Kitten]

14.

I hope I didn't play a part in directing you to the trolls and get you upset! Because I seriously doubt that bitch has God on speed dial.

Hang in there. And like someone else said, I kinda miss your old pic on your blog, but the flower is pretty. You just looked like a bad ass in that picture! ;)

[Christina]

15.

I, being a fat lady myself, feel you pain (and ate a cookie over it, just for good measure). I hate that it is so damned hard to lose weight. It was easy (comparitively) to quit drugs, drink, and what I call "stupid " sex, but food...god damn is right!
Don't listen to that troll. So, even if God said no to you getting pregnant on you own, he did have something (my belief here) to do with all the wonderful infertility medical stuff (very scientific description there, heh) they have out there these days. That must mean something, right?

[connie]

16.

Even the Bible says it "rains on the just and the unjust." In other words, stuff happens.

Sending you a big cyber hug.

[Christine]

17.

I have to second the comment about your picture - I miss it, too. Definitely bad ass! When I first saw it, my reaction was, "Now *she's* gonna be one hip mama!"

Sorry your day in the ER sucked, and I hope the headaches get under control soon.

[Emily]

18.

Speaking as someone who as spent most of their life overweight or battling to keep my weight down, I can seriously relate. IF has put a good 30 pounds on me. While I admit that shoving those brownies into my mouth was by my own act, the stress of the infertility motivated it because I've never had a good relationship with my body or food (thanks Mom!). I need to lose weight now, not so much for having a baby, but because I just need to, but I also readily admit that I am not mentally ready to do so and that is one of the single most important components in this battle. The mechanism, eat less, burn more is obvious, but the mental energy is huge. Be kind to yourself right now and don't beat yourself up. It will come to you and soon enough. You're dealing with a lot right now and just allow yourself to grieve. One day, and soon, you'll just get up, walk outside and be on your way.

Thinking of you.

[Leslie]

19.

God made the doctor who invented IVF, so I don't have any problems with it being ungodly or whatever.

Also, get yourself some Maxalt for those migranes. It's magic. I used to suffer through them thinking it was some type of a "cycle" I needed to go through, but now I just think I don't need to feel pain.

[Chris]

20.

Cecily-

It's so hard to avoid assvice...but I really want to say something and I hope it comes out right. Self-blame is a normal part of grieving the loss of a child...as mothers we feel like we should be able to protect our children at all costs...when our bodies fail, because of pre-eclampsia or incompetent cervix (like in my loss) or any other horrible complication of pregnancy, we "know" that somehow it has to be because of something we did (or didn't) do. Of course, eventually, we hear from others (trolls, asshat family members, etc) that it is indeed because of something. We shouldn't have told everyone before 12 weeks, we shouldn't have gained 30 lbs in 4 months, we should have dieted and been thinner before we dared to get pregnant, whatever. God doesn't punish us for being human and imperfect...anyone who says otherwise is editing God for content! I think we all know how crazy the notion that God doesn't have anything to do with ART. God creates all life and the knowledge to help our doctors (this is of course my opinion, but it makes sense to me). Of course, being the absolutely fabulous woman that you are, you already know this! Don't let "them" win. We're all here for you!

[Amy]

21.

With all you have been through lately I cannot believe someone said that about you and your loss. Incredibly insensitive.

Be kind to yourself, worry about the weight in a few weeks, a month.. You have been through so much, been so strong. Just be good to yourself, take it easy and remember, what happened was NOT your fault...

[SusieJ]

22.

Right now, it's very fashionable to feel morally superior to fat people. I've been hovering at 200 for the past ... um ... five? shit ... years, and I have to give myself a mental smackdown whenever I see heavier woman, because I think, well, I'm not as fat as her. Because, you know, that makes me a better person than her, without even trying.

American culture seems pretty directionless at the moment, and people focus on inconsequential things as a measure of success: weight, money, toys, beauty. People don't know how to give their lives meaning, and focus on external things for that meaning. So now we have a culture of THIN and THINGS, and people who aren't thin or don't have things are bad, lazy, immoral and probably voted for Nader.

You're fat. I'm fat. SuperMom is fat. My mom is fat. Who cares? We aren't bad people. We don't beat up on little old ladies. C. loves you. SuperMom loves you. Jorj and I love you. My mom thinks you're hysterical (German breasts!) and would probably love you if she met you. And every time I have a fit of road rage, I keep thinking "I can't control the other driver, I can only control my reaction." Who taught me that? (Just wish the lesson would stick a bit more.) Who's editing a new arts journal in our fair city? Who conquers her demons every day?

From what you've said, it sounds like you had an exceptionally bad reaction to the hormones and drugs. You sounded exhausted, and exhaustion is far different from tired. The weight gain when you started IVF wasn't your failure, it was a drug reaction. You can't beat yourself up for that!

As for God, I'm not convinced he's watching every sparrow. I am REALLY unconvinced that everything happens for a reason. What's the point of my mother being in a wheelchair? Maybe there is one, and when I die, I learn the grand scheme, but until then, I just have to deal with it. If God is doing home studies on every pregnant woman, please explain crack babies and fetal alchohol syndrome. This bout of preeclampsia doesn't mean you aren't meant to be a mother. You are affectionate, patient, and interested with kids. You will be a good mom. (Go read Good Omens for another take on God's plan.)

It's hard to live in an unreasoning world, where shit just happens. To find someone to blame -- even ouselves -- means we can find a reason, and exert control to prevent the tragedy from occurring again. Blaming God -- "it's God's will" -- is another way to make sense of the senseless. (Jorj says, "Fuck that shit.")

Maybe you don't get a reason. Maybe the best you can do is that this whole thing, and your writing about it, changes someone's mind about medically necessary abortion, and then policy changes, and another woman's life is saved.

It's surprising that you don't see your own amazingness. It's time for a new (metaphorical) mirror. You've touched a lot of lives. Take care of yourself; keep after the doctors about that headache.

Sue

[maricar]

23.

I had that problem after my emergency c-section delivery with Malia. The headache wouldn't go away. I finally went in to the emergency room when Malia was 2 months old. They at first thought it was because of my high platelet count or from the epidural. They were gonna give me a spinal block but decided against it. I saw a happenstance OB the next day and he gave me Amidrine for migraines. Turns out that I have my migraines AGAIN. After losing them back when I was in college. So they tell me to take some caffeine or tylenol when I'm feeling it coming on again. But I just go to Starbucks instead. ((hugs)) Hope you feel better soon.

[Journeywoman]

24.

I'm fat too.

One of my best friends is fatter than I am and she got pregnant like that. I too have blamed my infertility on my desire to eat. I hurt and hurt and I eat to stuff down that pain.

You are a wonderful person and sometimes things happen. Sometimes very bad things.

Blessings and comfort for you.

[Kristin]

25.

Okay, I'm "in love" with some of the people who have commented here today. While I've been going through treatment--albeit brief--I've considered if being overweight affects my ability to conceive, but I look at the pictures of the women that are blogging that I respect so much and some of them are thin as can be and have female factors.

It's such a shame, it's almost like weight is an automatic crutch--no matter the condition. I love reading your blog and I'm glad to see your raw honesty about everything. In some way, alot of the things I read inspire me to do different things in my own life.

[susan]

26.

Dearest Cecily:

If you think this is the moment to start dealing with what you think of as an eating issue, I'm going to have to come find you and give you a smack! (I'd then offer you a plate of brownies, of course.) This! Is! Not! The! Time!

I, too, have struggled with eating issues throughout my life, continue to as certain life issues re-surface. The profound and deep grief and mourning that you are experiencing is where I wish all your focus could be right now. If that extra bowl of potato chips offers you a modicum of easing of your pain today, well, you know what? That is fucking fine! Absolutely, perfectly fine. YOur pain could not be more raw or fresh. I wish you could see that, see that you really must do what you need to do right now to work through that. And, truly, if extra food is something that is offering you comfort at the moment, please, allow yourself that comfort. Please.

If in 6 months, you want to shift things around with food, well, maybe that will be the time to start to look at it with the obvious commitment you have given to other things. But, right now, really...please...I wish you as much gentleness on yourself that I would wish for my very own best friend going through a similar experience.

As always, sending love...

Susan

[Leah]

27.

Please, please don't let the religious nutcases convince you that God doesn't want you to have children! In the Jewish religion it is a Mitzvah (commandment/good deed) to have children.

I once had a religious girl on a message board tell me that one day "God would smash the heads of the enemies children on rocks" and she couldn't wait for that day to come.
These people are just sick! Scary, but also mentally ill.

Stick with your plan and get healthy (and I am not talking about your weight here). Lots of overweight women have children.

[Kristine]

28.

Okay- let me start with the lunatic who claims "God has nothing to do with Cecily's babies." Forgive my malice but I hope she never needs medical intervention for something like, say...cancer. Or heart disease. Or kidney failure. Because the modern miracles of medicine could save her life. But perhaps she would rather decide God just chose for her to die.
Now as for your weight issues- I don't know if this is a stupid thing to point out or not- but I have a sister who is at least 100 pounds overweight who got pregnant accidentally, and gave birth to a healthy baby last January. While I, of a normal weight, was having miscarriage #3. Oh, and I had pre-eclampsia with my first pregnancy even though I only gained 33 lbs.
This was not your fault! You did nothing to deserve this. If you lose weight and get healthier- fine, wonderful! But do it without tying it to your worthiness to be a mother.
Oh, and keep venting here, hon. I'm sure this healing is going to be a very long process.

[Rebecca]

29.

Cecily, dont let asshats and their assvice make you feel as though this is your fault, because its not. PIH can happen to anyone. And as far as your pregnancy not having anything to do with God, thats bull. Do these people honestly think that God gives pregnancies to crack addicts? If a person has to use IVF or whatever to get pregnant, its not because God has denied them a pregnancy. Its because they have a MEDICAL CONDITION THAT PREVENTS PREGNANCY. Infertility is just as much a medical condition as cancer or migraines. Should we not treat those conditions? Some people really piss me off when they open their trap and let their ignorance show.

[holly]

30.

Yeah, what happened to you sucked, but you cant go on being bitter about it! I personally wouldnt have terminated the other twin and cant really understand why you had to...Couldnt they have monitered you in the hospital for as long as it took until the baby was viable outside?? Forgive me if I havent read that explanation somewhere else, but its been bothering me for awhile now. I think the infertility treatments is taking it out of God's hands, but if He didnt want to allow it, it wouldnt happen.Regardless of the doctors ability.. Plain and simple...so obviously He wanted you to have those babies, but He allowed a struggle to happen to you and then it was your choice to do with it what you did. You cant beat yourself up over it now. You cant change the past, but you can change the future. I personally think if you have a relationship with God, then you should stop saying His name in vain tho...

[Cecily]

31.

OK, Holly...I'm emailing this to you and posting it.

You obviously didn't read what happened.

If I had stayed pregnant, I would have DIED from the preeclampsia. Do you understand that? There was NO WAY for me to maintain the pregnancy without having a seizure, going into a coma, and dying. NO WAY. The preeclampsia was TOO ADVANCED for me to live.

Just in case that STILL isn't clear.

STAYING PREGNANT, IN THE HOSPITAL OR NOT, WOULD HAVE KILLED ME.

Secondly.

I did NOT want to terminate the second baby. I DID NOT HAVE A CHOICE.

His lungs weren't there. He couldn't breathe outside of my uterus. If I had delivered him, he would have been in unending agony the very, very short time he would have been outside my womb. His short life would have been brutal, painful, and awful, and I just could not subject him to that.

IS THAT FUCKING CLEAR?

Go tell other people what God thinks. Leave me the fuck alone.

Cecily

[holly]

32.

I dont need you to berate me...i am simply trying to learn what happened to you. So, there is nothing they could have given you to prevent the seizures, etc?? There was no way to manage the sympoms until viability? Instead of cussing me out, why dont you help me learn why it had to happen?

[Diaphanta]

33.

I really really related to this post, Cecily.

Since I had the bright idea to start getting pregnant last year everything has just gone wrong. I got pregnant, I miscarried. I split up from my boyfriend. Then I found out I'd got pregnant almost immediately after the miscarriage - and then miscarried again. I decided to go to a clinic to get pregnant - this failed three times. Now I've met a great man - he is lovely, wonderful - I really really like him. He told me last week that he'd had a vasectomy twelve years ago. So - I'm looking for signs from God here.

I'm in Al-anon - 12 step recovery programme and I struggle daily with my concept of a higher power. Things I am sure about: God, whoever, whatever he/she is: Has a great sense of humour. Looks at things in the long term. Wants me to experience/engage in everything. Does not patronise, underestimate me. Always - has much more imagination than me.

But the cruelty, the pain - I too find it hard to see my God in this. And the only thing I do is pray for clarity - and keep coming back - because to end the dialogue is always worse.

I also have an eating disorder and issues around my size. The best thing I've ever read on the subject are the books of Geneen Roth. I think the woman is a goddess. Have you come across her? I think I have got sa bit of sanity under my belt on this one - all from this one source. She writes in a really spiritual, feeling way.

I'm sorry too much advice probably. I just relate to your honesty - your amazing honesty. Thank you.

[Cecily]

34.

OK.

If you really want to understand, I'll tell you.

They put me on Magnesium Sulfate in an IV in the hospital. If I had responded to that, yes, there would have been a chance that we could have made it a few more weeks.

However, overnight, while on the IV, the disease progressed anyway. I had horrendous headaches that required morphine to make even only slightly better, and became seriously nauseated and vomited constantly.

My blood pressure continued to rise.

My kidneys were shut down--I wasn't producing urine at all.

I was heading into multiple organ failure--liver, kidneys, etc.

The disease was not responding to the medicine.

The only option I was given that morning was to either deliver my son or have an extended dilation and extraction. The doctors would not allow me to continue the pregnancy.

I already explained why I chose the D&E over delivering the baby. I thought delivering my son, as much as I wanted to meet him, would have been cruel to him, cruel to the doctors that would have to try to save him, and cruel to me.

I feel like this has already been clearly explained here in my blog.

Trust me, I wanted these babies more than anything else in the world. No one goes through what I went through to get pregnant and makes the decision to terminate the pregnancy lightly.

The reason I got angry, Holly, is that NO ONE should feel they have the right to make me explain my choices. Your demands for explanation, and you throwing God into the discussion as well, shows your ignorance and unkindness. I cursed you out because what you said HURT me. Hurt me deeply.

Now do you understand?

Somehow, I doubt it.

[Diaphanta]

35.

I really really related to this post, Cecily.

Since I had the bright idea to start getting pregnant last year everything has just gone wrong. I got pregnant, I miscarried. I split up from my boyfriend. Then I found out I'd got pregnant almost immediately after the miscarriage - and then miscarried again. I decided to go to a clinic to get pregnant - this failed three times. Now I've met a great man - he is lovely, wonderful - I really really like him. He told me last week that he'd had a vasectomy twelve years ago. So - I'm looking for signs from God here.

I'm in Al-anon - 12 step recovery programme and I struggle daily with my concept of a higher power. Things I am sure about: God, whoever, whatever he/she is: Has a great sense of humour. Looks at things in the long term. Wants me to experience/engage in everything. Does not patronise, underestimate me. Always - has much more imagination than me.

But the cruelty, the pain - I too find it hard to see my God in this. And the only thing I do is pray for clarity - and keep coming back - because to end the dialogue is always worse.

I also have an eating disorder and issues around my size. The best thing I've ever read on the subject are the books of Geneen Roth. I think the woman is a goddess. Have you come across her? I think I have got sa bit of sanity under my belt on this one - all from this one source. She writes in a really spiritual, feeling way.

I'm sorry too much advice probably. I just relate to your honesty - your amazing honesty. Thank you.

[holly]

36.

I didnt throw God into the discussion...you did in your post. I know you didnt want to do this to you baby. I can feel your pain from reading about it. I just wanted to know why it had to happen, because I am sure it happens alot. I think sometimes it happens when it shouldnt, but obviously you feel you did all you could do and the doctors made that choice for you. I wouldnt have made that choice, but I am me, and you are you. But please take this in kindness....you sound so bitter about it. Its going to eat you alive if you let it, and you cant let that happen. I just had a miscarriage myself. Should I be mad at God and say "why in the hell did you do this to me???" and feel like it was personal? NO, i have to understand that in life things happen, and you have to get on with life. I hope you have the willingness to continue in your quest to be a mommy...the world needs good mommies. Do they think that you would have this problem in subsequent pregnancies?

[Kim]

37.

Cecily-

You are so strong and courageous. You should not have to explain yourself to anyone.

Holly-

Get off the fucking blog! If you had read any of Cecily's blog before spouting off, you would know what happened. Just because she has a blog, do you think she owes you anything?!?!? Do you think what you said helps anyone but you?

Cecily has gone through so much to give women her story. She has opened the door to her grief and shared it with her readers. If all you can do in your Christian kindness is berate her for what she went through, then you don't know a thing about God's love. As for your relationship with God, next time you have a moment to speak with him. Ask him how you did with Cecily. I am sure you will get a direct response.

Cecily- you know that things happen. You know that prayers are answered and not answered. You share this with us, but we hopefully lift you when you need an extra kindness. You did not cause the pre-eclampsia. I don't think you are bitter, just hurting.

[holly]

38.

See, its sites like this that led me to believe that it doesnt have to end the way yours did...
quote taken from http://familydoctor.org/064.xml

"If delivery isn't possible because it's too early in your pregnancy, steps can be taken to manage the preeclampsia until the baby can be delivered. These steps include making your blood pressure drop, with bed-rest or medicines, and keeping a close eye on you and your baby. In some cases, hospitalization may be necessary.

One way to control high blood pressure when you're not pregnant is to cut the amount of salt you eat. This isn't a good idea if you have high blood pressure during pregnancy. Your body needs salt to keep up the flow of fluid in your body, so you need a normal intake of salt. Your doctor will tell you how much salt to eat each day and how much water you should drink each day.

Your doctor might tell you to take aspirin or extra calcium to prevent preeclampsia. Your doctor might also tell you to lie on your left side while you are resting. This will improve blood flow and take weight off your large blood vessels. Many doctors give magnesium sulfate to their patients during labor and for a few days afterward to help prevent eclampsia. Talk to your doctor about these things."

[holly]

39.

How am I berating her Kim? I am simply wanting to learn about her experience. She obviously feels like its okay to talk about.

[holly]

40.

But to be fair, i also found this, which is apparently what you had??

Eclampsia and HELLP Syndrome
Yet another complication from untreated preeclampsia is a rare, life-threatening condition in the mother called eclampsia, which can lead to convulsions and coma. Also, about 10 percent of women with severe preeclampsia develop a disorder called HELLP syndrome. (HELLP stands for Hemolysis, Elevated Liver enzymes, and Low Platelet count.) Symptoms of HELLP syndrome include nausea and vomiting, headache and upper right abdominal pain. Women can also develop HELLP syndrome without preeclampsia 2-7 days after delivery.

Treatment includes medications to control blood pressure and prevent seizures, and, often, platelet transfusions. As with preeclampsia and eclampsia, delivery of the baby is the only real “cure” for HELLP syndrome. Women who develop HELLP syndrome during pregnancy almost always have to deliver their babies early to prevent serious complications.

[Libby]

41.

Delurking to say Holly, go away please. Just please go away. Do all the research you want on the internet but stop harrassing Cecily, who certainly doesn't need any outside stressors right now. Good grief, you say you wouldn't have made the same decision as she did? Well, you'd be dead now then, and I'm sure your family and friends would be upset. How can you say such a thing to someone who's grieving and feeling guilty as it is? Also, how can you know how you would react in any situation before you've actually experienced it? You simply can't know in advance.

Cecily my dear, I've been reading your blog for a few months now and have admired your candor and feisty-ness for a while. I'm so so very sorry for this whole awful ordeal you've been through. I am also a big girl, but have lost 30 pounds this past year. Sorry, hopefully not assvice, and everyone has different motivations of course, but the thing that works for me is just to move your body. When I stopped denying that my (large fat ugly whatever) body was mine to deal with, when I found joy in moving my muscles (walking, weight training whatever) then the weight slowly but surely started to come off. I have a long way to go but it seems do-able now.

Much love and luck and healing to you. Your blog makes me laugh and cry and is an overall inspiration. Please don't let the trolls get you down.

[Lisa]

42.

Cecily,

Did your headache go away? My first thought was that you might have something called a 'spinal headache' which sometimes occurs after an epidural when a bit of cerebral spinal fluid leaks and your body has trouble replacing it for a long time. It is pretty rare and so sometimes doctors don't think about it. But it is very curable with something called a blood patch which takes about 20 minutes in the docs office and boom, you are cured. The telltale sign is that the headache is worse when sitting up rather than laying down.

I saw that ep of 'strong medicine.' That show always has seemed judgemental to me. Anyway, hang in and don't let anyone else tell you what is right for you. Be good to yourself and your body.

Lisa

[holly]

43.

How do you know I would be dead by now, Libby?? How does anyone know???? You cant say that with any certainty at all!

[Sara]

44.

Holly.

Go google "eclampsia" rather than "pre-eclampsia" for awhile.

Any medical condition exists in stages. Telling Cecily she should have delayed the end of the PG to try those other things is like tellng someone with terminal bone cancer to "just take some aspirin, because those other drugs are addictive." Its a matter of degree.

Its not wise to start haranguing someone over their choices before you truly know what that choice entailed. Read up on what pre-eclampsia *becomes* if those "managements" you so blithely toss off don't work. You want more details? Google "Severe preeclampsia." You're finding the happy, lovey-dovey stuff that people put out so as not to scare pregnant women.

[Kris]

45.

Oy. I'm sorry you have such a horrid headache and had to go to the ER for it.

I'm also sorry that you have someone commenting such horrid hurtful things. Apparently she has hear only what she wants to syndrom, since I know you explained all the things she's questioning in posts, or our friend and husband did.

Never feel like you have to explain your actions. No one, and I mean NO ONE, can actually be where you were at that time, so no one can tell you what you should or shouldn't have done.

Bah.

Love you. Once again, I'm so sorry you had to go through any of this. Keep being bitter as long as you need to.

[grumpygirl]

46.

first things first: holly, if you know you're upsetting cecily, why keep coming here? why ask her to "move on" when it's been, i don't know, a week? why don't you find someone else to harass.

cecily: your restraint in even attempting to explain anything to holly the troll pretty much shows what a good person you are.

finally, re: weight. deal with that when you're ready. now is the time to let your heart and body heal. when you're ready to lose it, you will. (and email me, because i've been doing the new weight watchers no counting program, and i'm really never hungry... and i eat like a horse.)

[Cecily]

47.

As my best friend Sarah would say, Oy Vay.

Holly--you are still not hearing me, but that is what I expected.

I did NOT HAVE A CHOICE. Ok? I was too sick to maintain the pregnancy. Everything that can be used to treat preeclampsia was tried and FAILED.

Do you get it now?

And yes, you did throw God into the mix. My beliefs are that God can stand a bit of questioning. God doesn't care if I'm pissed off as long as we're still talking, and we are. God was in the hospital room, and wanted me to survive, so I did. That's my belief.

Thanks, everyone else, for leaping to my defense. I normally don't feed the trolls, but it's nice to be mad at someone else for a change instead of myself.

Cecily

[holly]

48.

You survived, but your baby didnt...how are you to say that you are more important than the baby? My belief, yes, but I just cant understand why someone would choose that way. I have other children myself, but I would die for my children. You can tell me that they tried everything, but from the posts you made, it wasnt that long they tried. I know hindsight is 20/20 but i simply was trying to make someone "who knows who" see that maybe it doesnt have to end like that the next time. I am not bashing you! I may not be coming off the way I want to, but thats me. I sincerely hope you discover your relationship with God. Reading your past posts leads me to believe you are really confused about Him. Your past sucked apparently but your future doesnt have to.

[Charlie]

49.

There are a few sentences that no woman should ever have to hear from her obstetrician or perinatologist, and perhaps the worst among them are...

"We cannot keep you both alive and pregnant."

Yet those are the exact words that our high-risk OB said to Cecily on the morning of Oct 27th. I know because I am her husband and I was there.

Now I don't fight Cecily's battles for her. She's very capable of doing that herself. But I think in all these recent exchanges, there's been an assumption that somehow we entered into this decision lightly, or that our doctors took action prematurely. Let me assure Holly (and anyone else) that this is NOT the case.

Our doctors said that, with the treatment, Cecily's body would let us know within a day whether she could survive until the remaining twin reached viability. And we got our answer, loud and clear, though it was one we dreaded. Cecily was hours from permanent organ damage and death. Can I say this for certain? Yes I can. Because it came from medical professionals with years of experience.

As for spirituality, there are several games I do not play. Among them are...
• "Guess What God Is Thinking"
• "My Higher Power Can Beat Up Your Higher Power"...and
• "Spiritualize My Own Hysteria" (thanks to author Anne Lamott)
They are neither constructive nor compassionate.

I again thank everyone who has supported both Ceciy and myself during these difficult times.

Cec, I love you deeply and forever.
-Charlie

[lisa]

50.

Holy crap, Holly, why don't you find a new hobby and leave Cecily alone? Perhaps if God wants you to understand what she went through and why it happened, He'll tell you Himself.

Absolutely NOWHERE did Cecily say she was more important than the baby. The simple fact is, she was dying, and they had no way to save the baby. If she died, the baby would die. It's that horribly, cruelly simple.

If you still don't understand this, look in the phone book and call a doctor to explain it to you. Or go to med school and learn it for yourself.

Regardless of what you would do in Cecily's situation, you have no right to question her or demand answers. It is, frankly, none of your business, and if you had an ounce of compassion you would apologize for hurting her and vanish.

[holly]

51.

reality check - true facts and statistics about abortion

The viability factor

Can you use the baby’s ability live outside of the womb (viability) as a measure of when a baby is human? No way! To do so is completely illogical. Fifty years ago viability was at 30 weeks. Twenty-five years ago it dropped to 25 weeks. Today we have preemie survivors at 20 weeks.

[whitney]

52.

Delurking to say: Please Holly tell me all about the 20 weekers that survive! This is apparently some modern medical miracle that I am not aware of. You have no clue about pre-eclampsia and the incredible danger Cecily faced, and you also think 20 weekers apparently survive, so it seems to me tht you have NO IDEA WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. Please educate yourself before you ask someone in a profound state of grief to "justify" themeselves.

[holly]

53.

I have done research...all day as a matter of fact! read away http://www.abortioninfo.net/facts/development4.shtml
http://www.lifeissues.org/radio/r1997/lr1634.htm
http://www.jcu.edu/studentl/Student%20Activities/Student%20Organizations/RTL/FETAL.HTM

[holly]

54.

Heres a couple more that tell about viablity... since you asked. http://www.rtllsc.org/lifebegin.html

http://www.pregnantpause.org/develop/when.htm

[Cecily]

55.

Holly, the record for a premature infant survival is 23 weeks.

And honestly, Holly, if we're going to discuss God here...

You said God wasn't involved in the medical technology that got me pregnant (ie IVF).

Is God involved with the medical technology that saves those premature babies? For years and years those babies just died. It's only been recently that they've been saved.

You can't have it both ways. You cannot condem one act of medical intervention and praise another.

I'm sitting here right now missing my sons with such a deep pang and feeling of loss and agony that I can't even take a deep breath. My breast continue to lactate, even with no baby to feed.

You cannot imagine my pain.

But I rest easy at night, as grief stricken as I am, knowing I made the best possible choice for my son.

[Cecily]

56.

Post one more link to a "right-to-life" (as long as that right is the babies, not the mothers, huh?) site on my blog, Holly, I will ban you from posting here.

Post links from reputable medical sites and I will let you stay.

[Kris]

57.

Cecily-

Can you ban Holly? Ban her IP address?

Thinking of you.

Holly-

Learn the definition of compassion. It is not telling someone they are too bitter, or that they made the wrong choices, or that their choices are not your choices. Its being there and just SHUTTING THE FUCK UP except to say I'm sorry, and I'm here if you need me. Its not posting over and over to their blog all your "proof" that they did the wrong thing, especially when it was a life or death choice, and a choice that meant choosing to lose her son, or making her husband lose both her and her son.

You're not wanted here. Go away and leave her to her grief. Don't sit here making it worse.

[holly]

58.

i said that if God didnt want it to take, it wouldnt have, so He did have part in it....So your whole comment there made no sense...

[holly]

59.

They are not all right to live pro life sources...

[chris]

60.

Damn, I was going to say something supportive and uplifting to Cecily but instead I have to address Holly:

Holly, I don't know where you got your medical degree from, but clearly, you need to share your brilliant insights with the rest of the medical community so they can save women like Cecily and their babies.

Oh wait. You're not a doctor? You're just a bored dumbass harassing a poor woman who's been through the worst thing any of us can imagine (including you, dumbfuck) and you're kicking her when she's down? Well, here's a little suggestion: Why don't you take your web-footed, Western Sizzlin' eating, counsin-marrying, right-wing conservative ass back into the kitchen and fix Bubba's dinner before he takes off his steel toed boot and shoves it up your ass. Now go on. You know your place.

I hate it when people can't play nice.

[holly]

61.

blah blah blah chris. i am not name calling at all, so you shouldnt be either.

[Michelle]

62.

C:

I'm sorry to hear about your headache, I hope you feel better soon.

Fat does not define you as a person. It does not dictate your self worth or even your health. If doctors knew everything they would know how to make sure we got pregnant and stayed pregnant. Hell, they would know how to help us lose weight. Just because they have views and studies on obesity doesn't make them right. Don't buy into the negative messages b/c they may not even be right.

Please don't beat yourself up about your weight, it's counterproductive and isn't going to make you thin.

Clearly God is NOT living our lives for us or else we would not have Somalia or other tragedies, but rather is waiting for us to take the reins and maximize the opportunities She makes possible.

Now,what have you done for yourself lately? Have you had a massage, read a good book, gone to a good movie, bought a pretty bouquet of flowers? Go do something, if you can, that is completely unrelated to this and let it all go just for a few minutes.

You are a person of great spirit and strength, like steel forged in fire and reflecting the great light of its Creator and I'm sure you'll come out okay in the end.

Hang in there and know you are thought of and loved by many.

Michelle

P.S. Holly, words escape me. What is wrong with you? Your behavior is unacceptable, ask yourself would you behave this way face to face with someone? I suspect the answer is no so I ask you, how is what you're doing acceptable by even your own standard (hoping you have one) of appropriate social behavior. Grow up or go away. Please.

[grumpygirl]

63.

holly, where i come from, god doesn't condone harassment. your behavior is appalling, and if there is a hell i am sure that there is a space waiting there for you.

[Rebecca]

64.

Holly, Well you say you werent name calling so Chris shouldnt be either. Fine, Cecily wasnt posting annoying and rude comments on your blog, so you shouldnt be either. You may not understand why cecily had to terminate her pregnancy, but I can assure you that she had no choice. I amso had preclampsia with my son, and mine started at 35 weeks, so luckily I was able to give birth to my child. But, the day after my symptoms started I had to deliver because I was having convulsions and kidney failure. The doctor told me if I hadtried to carry him even one more day I would have lapsed into a coma and died. Do you really think it would be worth dying for? If the mother dies, the husband loses his wife and the opportunity to have any more children with her. I personally wouldnt risk my life for a baby that WOULD NOT have survived more than a few hours, maybe days. What kind of monster would do that to a child? that baby would have suffered tremendously. Cecily made the right choice for HER,it doesnt fucking matter what you think, IT WASNT YOUR FUCKING CHOICE! Come back and tell us all how we are so awful after you go through something like this, until then, buggar off.

[whitney]

65.

This woman just lost her two children, Holly. I really don't see how any of this matters or how your uneducated agenda fits in here. Being pro-life is fine, but Cecily did not choose her life over her baby's. They were both going to die from a terrible disease called pre-eclampsia. Please go to preeclampsia.org and learn more about it. When you have severe pre-e like Cecily had, the only treatment is delivery. Please ask any OB-GYN what the record for premature infant survival is. These websites you posted are wrong and are not reputable.

I will be praying for you and trying to understand why you feel the need to badger someone who has lost two babies she desperately wanted.

[holly]

66.

her baby might have lived....they will never know now. I am not trying to hurt her, but in some wierd twisted way, let her see that if this happens again, there may be other choices. a 20 week old baby CAN and HAS survived before....the odds of severe complications from toxemia are low, and so are the odds of survival (but actually are higher than you would imagine), but she proved the first odds, she could have proven the second ones.

[Sarah]

67.

HOLY (or should I say HOLLY) shit!!

I can't believe I missed all this because of going to my daughter's ice hockey practice.

Holly, my loyalty as Cecily's best friend makes me actually want to throttle you.

But trying to be objective....aw, shit. I still want to throttle you. You are an insensitive bitch, hiding behind your 'politeness'. Take your questions elsewhere, like to your doctor. Cecily is entitled to her grief, and entitled to question God or anything else. You are entitled too, but not here. Not when it is disrespecting someone. Now go away if you haven't already.

Cecily, I love you and thank God for you every single day.

Sarah

[Monique]

68.

I am so sorry that you have to go through all of this... but I have always felt everything happens for a reason - even when I would rather believe things are happening just so I can live a tortured life.

I am also sorry that you have to deal with people like Holly... I used to tell my husband that the cool thing about talking to people online whether in chat rooms, blogs or emails - whatever - you have this lovely ability to type things out, second guess it and then delete it. Also, when you don't like something the little X in the corner allows you to make it go away. I wonder when others will learn this.

Anyway, I just by to say hi and let you know I am also fat... I go up and down like an insane roller coaster and I can't tell you how many people insist if I lost the weight all my infertility troubles would vanish. How I wish that were true.

As for God's wishes, I have always felt he was behind IVF, IUI, Adoption and whatever other options there were for me out there. Maybe I had a greater lesson to learn than to simply lay in bed and get knocked up... who knows. But I'll be damned if I let some narrow minded baren whench who can get pregnant by winking at her husband tell me that maybe God did not want me to have children or whatever.

All right I am done ranting... You are forever in my prayers and thoughts.

[Crista]

69.

Just another lurker here de-lurking to comment, and I don't know where to begin. I actually hadn't visited your blog in quite some time, just for lack of time to keep up with the many incredible woman bloggers like you out there, and I had no idea you lost your boys.

I am simply heart-broken for you, and have been in tears reading through your recent entries, your husband's, and Sarah's. I'm so very, very sorry for your pain and grief. I will never, ever understand why anyone is forced to face the kind of decisions you were. I'm just so sorry.

As for Holly, I can't even fathom why she continues to comment, nor why she can't just leave you alone (regardless of what her intentions may or may not be), and if I were you, I'd probably have blocked her several comments ago. You don't deserve any of what she's said, and I'm glad you don't seem to be taking it to heart.

Take care of yourself, feel whatever and however you feel (but please don't blame yourself), and please express yourself freely here. This is your place, and none other's.

Again, I'm so very sorry. You are in my thoughts.

[Laurie]

70.

I'm sorry you are having to go through this (meaning Holly), Cecily and Charlie. I think we would all understand if you wanted to take your blog private for a while just to keep the asshats away.

[Lori]

71.

For whatever it's worth, I clicked on a couple of those links...the time-frame for birth they reference is, for example, 22 weeks AFTER CONCEPTION. That is not the way M.D.'s date pregnancies - they date them from Last-Mentrual-Period. So, add 2 weeks to every date referenced there (i.e. when they discuss the viability of a 22 week preemie, it's really a 24 weeker). Oh, and then disregard them, because most of that appears to be BS. In the year 2004, viability is not 20 weeks. Yeah, maybe we'll get there. I certainly hope so - the sooner the better - but we aren't there yet.

[holly]

72.

This is a direct quote from one of the links
"The next question is how early in pregnancy is a baby viable? We now have two survivors at 20 weeks and more at 21. Survivability at 23 weeks is fairly common. These weeks, incidentally, are counted from the first day of the last normal menstrual period.

A baby who survives in the very early 20's is an extraordinary child, and their numbers are very few. Nevertheless, you never know when this next one, delivering at 20 weeks, might be the next one to survive. Accordingly, Utah passed a law pegging viability at 20 weeks, but, sadly, that law was struck down by the U.S. Supreme Court in June. "

Did you see the part about counted AFTER THE MENSTRAL PERIOD???

[Cecily]

73.

OK, Holly, that's it. You are blocked. That quote is from a prolife site, and is propoganda, not fact.

See ya later. Have a great life, and enjoy your bitchy self-righteous self.

[GOD]

74.

I received a message today and thought I'd pass it on. This is from God.

ATTENTION EVERYONE!! THIS IS THE BIG GUY HIMSELF SPEAKING!!!

First of all I'd like to congratulate Holly for her courage and compassion. Let's face it, how many other people would have the sheer unadulterated guts to troll a woman in My Name who is going through the worst agony a person can undergo, losing much wanted babies? Holly, you GO girl!!! You are DEFINITELY living the meaning of the word TRUE CHRISTIAN.

Second--Cecily, QUIT BEATING YOURSELF UP! You did NOTHING WRONG. Yes, this world has its share of Hellish experiences. I am not going to explain why at this time to the humble mortal who is typing this. But I am real, and I love you very much.

Signing off now,
Love,
God

[Kathleen]

75.

I'm trying to picture God badgering a woman who just lost two dearly loved babies. Trying...trying...trying...nope, sorry, it's not working.

In anycase, ignorance may be bliss for Holly (so as to not have to challenge her non-factually based scientific beliefs, perhaps?), but it is sure as hell not bliss for the rest of us. Can I cast a vote to banning her?

This topic is a hot one for me not only because I care about Cecily but because I have a dear friend who nearly died five months ago. She was in Cecily's position (except my friend was lucky enough to be 32 weeks pregnant)...while they were debating what to do, my friends blood pressure surged even higher, she had multiple seizures and then lapsed into a coma. Over the next week she went into organ failure. Those of us who love her wandered hopelessly from the NICU to visit the baby and my friends hospital bed.

It's been a long, hard five months. My friend is still not herself; she has blurred vision, tires very easily and is unable to care for her daughter by herself. Her daughter is home and doing well but not out of the woods (somethings we just won't know until she is older.)

This isn't the kind of situation where you can sit and wait and monitor. The doctor's knew that and they had the difficult task of telling Cecily and her husband. Cecily and her husband had the far more diffcult task of processing that information and having to act on it.

As for being willing to die for your children, due to the fact that Holly is still here, yammering away, we can clearly see that she has not been put in that position and so her assumptions about what she would do are meaningless.

Lastly, it's not pro-life to think that women should be forced to die for lack of legalized abortion. Take that misogynistic propaganda somewhere else.

I'm really sorry, Cecily and Charlie.

[concertina]

76.

Cecily, I've been reading for a while now; I'm so very sorry for your loss...

Holly...go away. Do not question another womans choices. Cecily was going to die. Her unborn son had no lungs. He WOULD have died within hours.

No matter what you believe, you have no right to question another womans decisions about her own body. None. And it's truly abhorrent to try and make her feel GUILT about her choices.

But I doubt you'd get that; your previous posts show that you don't care much about anyone's feelings other than your own.

[Expat]

77.

Cecily, I just wanted to add my voice to the overwhelming love and support for you.

[Trish]

78.

Damn it. I don't understand why people enjoy twisting the knife sooo much. I'm so sorry, Cecily- and proud of you for allowing her to post as long as you did. She would have been banned immediately from my blog- or I'd stalk her down and beat her with a big stick!

[boxing octopus]

79.

Dear Cecily,

I was wondering if you could go into your magic time machine, go back a couple of weeks and undo your life-threatening illness and subsequent pregnancy termination? Think of the children, Cecily! THE CHILDREN! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, WHO WILL THINK OF THE CHILDREN?

[bugsy1970]

80.

Cecily,

(applauding) - Well done. You have been so brave to post what you do, your personal intimate feelings, and we all love you for it - and we all wish we could change things for you. You so don't deserve trolls of any sort, but ones who just don't go away are the worst. I will not mention her name - feeding time is over, but well done on blocking "it".

And I have to say - your husband is an absolute angel. (of course, as you deserve the best).

Mega-support to you and your husband coming from Australia (yep the whole country - just organised it LOL). I so hope you start feeling better soon.

Take care hun.

[Amy V]

81.

Dear Cecily, I am so incredibly sorry that you are having to deal with a completely cluess, asshat person like Holly. I wish with all my heart that something I could say or do would ease your pain (and your family's) but there isn't. I think about you daily. Please remember that.

Now, I can't let go of this. I'm sory Cecily, I know this isn't exactly the right forum, but I need to say this to Holly. Hopefully, she will "hear" what I am saying. In the link I am providing is my birth story, almost 4 years ago. No, I didn't have to terminate....that was already done for me.

Now then.....Holly. Please, SHUT UP!. Until you have walked in Cecily's shoes, you have no idea. In all honesty, I haven't. But I do know one thing. This may be a misqote, but, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." This is what could have very well been Cecily's reality. http://tarnishedsiren.blogspot.com/2004/10/my-struggle-to-have-children.html It was mine. And you know what? I didn't use fertility treatments. What was I being punished for? I did everything right. My baby was past the age of viabilty. Is she in the next room in bed? NOPE! But, hopefully, when you feel the need to pick on someone after reading this, you won't pick someone who is so freshly walking the path of grief. (And yes, when you go at someone who is seriously hurting and grieving, trying to make them feel like shit over the choice they made, that is "picking" on them. Cecily is a stong woman. She can handle you from all I have seen, but why should she have to? After all, all your opinions aren't going to change the fact that her babies are gone!!! Do you understand that? Other than trying to "understand" what is your purpose in all this? Unless you are eveil enough to mean to hurt her? Feel free to "pick" on me if you want. Just do it on my blog. I promise, I am strong enough to take it.

Peace to you Cecily. I hope I didn't upset you even more. I'll go back into lurkdom now.

[Karen]

82.

Well, I'm coming late to this. I'm so glad you banned that fucking nutjob from your site, Cecily. I was in spasms of disbelief that someone could be that fucking imbecilic. As usual, you handled it with a hell of a lot more grace and eloquence than I would. I'm bowing to you, girl.

Holly, in case you're still reading: You might not have called anyone a name, or cussed anyone out. But do you realize that you told a woman who just lost her beloved sons that her life isn't important enough to save? Step back for a second and look at the big picture here: You barged into someone's personal blog, someone that was HURTING from the WORST PAIN any of us could ever imagine, and you went on and on and on about how YOU wouldn't have done that because YOU'RE a better person and YOU have a direct line to God.

That was possibly one of the most pathetic, cruel things I've ever witnessed done to a friend. I hope you feel good about yourself right now.

[Janis]

83.

Cecily,

Although I am relatively new to your blog, I am not new to grief.

Our losses are different in many ways, yet the pain isn't. We both grieve tremendously.

On January 27, 2003, my 16 year old daughter took her own life. Since that day, my world has changed. It will never be the same. I will never be the same.

I spent the first year in a fog. I really don't remember much of it. This second year though.. I am clear enough to remember almost every day.. Let's just say the second year has been far worse.

But, in the midst of the pain, the horror, the loss, I do have moments of joy. I am still here, still standing. Some days it is all I can do to breathe and get through, but I do it.

I live every day with regrets, if only's, should have's, might have's, could have's. As you know, we can drive ourselves crazy with these thoughts. And some days.. crazy just doesn't seem to be a bad thing.

There will be people who say wonderful things that support you and uplift you. There will be people who even for a moment, make your grief a bit lighter. There will be those who say things so off the wall it takes every ounce of strength you have not to pound their faces into mushy bits of pulp.

To those in the last group, the ones who just do not get it, I try to be happy for. They can only say spew such garbage because they have never been there. I am thankful they are so clueless. It means they have not lost anything or anyone so near and dear to them. Do I wish they'd go away? Yes. But I never wish them understanding. I'd not wish it on my worst enemy.

I'm so sorry you lost your boys. So very sorry. Saying I'm sorry you had to make the horrible choice is assinine as you had NO choice. It makes me ill to know there are those who cannot fathom that. A choice is made when you have two viable options. You didn't. You had no options. No choices. And you did the best you could with the information you had. You did the only thing you could do.

God.. Hmm... Such a touchy subject for me. I prayed for years that Marrissa would be okay. We fought for so long to keep her alive, healthy, and well. And just when I thought God had answered those prayers, she was gone. Ironic that we lost her when she was doing the best she ever had been. She seemed so happy. It seemed she had finally come to terms with her illness and was actually making plans for her future. Then just as quick, she was gone.

So either God has a very sick sense of humor, or He has me on mute. I've almost given up prayer. I can pray for others but never for myself.

I can't say that things will get better in time. I can tell you that you get used to living with the loss. The hurt does not ease, but it does move. It's not always right there in front of your face.

I have used this explanation before- Tertia shared a bit of it with you in an earlier response. But I'll share it again. Your grief right now is like a raw, gaping wound. In time, the wound heals a bit and scabs over. There will be times though, that the scab is torn off and you are right back to that first day. Back to the gaping wound.

It never heals completely though. It's always there. Sometimes hidden away in the back of your mind, sometimes right there at the front of it. But it is never really gone.

You go ahead and grieve how you need to. There is no right way, no wrong way. There is just your way. You do what you need to in order to get through each day. Each moment.

Be gentle with yourself Cecily. Try not to beat yourself up too much. Easier said than done, I know.

And if you ever want to talk, I'm only an email away.

Much love to you and Charlie...

[Sandy]

84.

I was going to post a quick response to you on the 12th when I read this entry; didn't; and now come back to this whole schmozzle! You know, I have to say here that my husband and I are very strong Christians who share a love for the God of our understanding. And we struggled long and hard after the death of our little boy at 20 weeks (which I now read could have been viable....where WERE my doctors heads???) with God's will in the whole situation. And most recently, we have made the decision to accept our doctor's referral to the fertility clinic. My husband put it in terms that work for us - God gave the doctors the skills that they need to help us in all situations. And for the record:
- I'm old (41)
- I'm fat (about 45 lbs overweight)
- my husband is in recovery
- and try as we may, we've never been able to claim without a doubt that we clearly understood God's will for us, so sure wouldn't claim to be able to figure out God's will for anyone else!

Janis quoted the saying about the open wound and the scar that you learn to live around ... that reality got me through many a day after several deaths in our lives.

Cecily, I think you and your husband are amazing. Thank you for having the courage to share your story with us through your blog.

[Jo-Ann]

85.

Oh Cecily I blink my eye and chaos breaks out on your blog.

Holly if you are reading this please take your version of God, and back the fuck up, and take it elsewhere. I wish you could have seen how sick Cecily was. It was more than scary to see and I am so glad to have my friend here today. Her decision was made from a place of love. For her boys and her husband.

Cecily. I wish for you a safe loving peaceful place to heal and contemplate.

Love
Jo-Ann

[Lynn]

86.

Cecily,

I am so, so sorry that you are going through this ordeal (which is made worse by people like Holly).

I also had severe preeclampsia and pulmonary edema, but was far enough into my pregnancy that my son survived. I wish that you didn't have to make the choice that no mother should have to make.

As for Holly, I love how she says that she wants to "understand why you did what you did, etc." when clearly that is not her motivation at all. She wants to do nothing but preach what is contained in her one-dimensional, brain-washed head of hers. How sad for her that she will go through life without questioning anything.

All the love and positive vibes to you and your husband. I believe that you will hold a child in your arms one day, and that child will have two big brothers looking out for him/her.

L

[Lioness]

87.

Cecily, you are one generous woman. Seriously. You have my deepest, deepest respect. Horrible things happen to horrible and also tremendously good people - such as you. Be kind to yourself. (Charlie, you ROCK!)

[Tertia]

88.

Charlie you rock!!

Holly, you are as thick as two bricks. Can you believe this women says preemies at 20w survive??? what a joke.

Holly is an asshole.HUGE asshole.

[Viv]

89.

Holly you are a pathetic and deluded creature. That of course is your right. You don't have to value you your own life. You can think that you are worthless, I certainly concur based upon your posts here. But you have no right to insist that Cecily value another's life over her own, especially since that wasn't even an option. She could not survive. The baby could not survive. Cecily is a grown woman she can fend you off, to be sure. What I worry over is whether you have children or not. You are not emotionally stable or smart enought to have children, and I hope that you never do. I know this sounds harsh, and I am sorry for that, really. But you are simply not mentally competent to be anyone's mother. Here is my evidence:

1. You have no sense of self-preservation as based on your statement that you would allow yourself to die should you find that your unborn, nonviable child will not survive. Unable to exert or evidence such basic common sense, you are unfit to parent. It would be a grave mistake for you to have a child as you are not competent to care for yourself. Selfcare is part of the standard guidelines in terms of defining one's ability to retain custody of one's child or children.

Would you really die when your unborn could not be saved at any cost? Would you leave your family, your children, your friends, everything that you value for such an empty gesture?

2. You lack basic reasoning in that you can not discern the bias of internet information. The websites you linked are devoted to the dissemination of pseudoscientific information meant to inflame passions and distort reason. Shame on you for being so easily duped!

3. You lack basic common sense and human compassion. Disagree, but this was not the forum for your opinion. Cecily is grieving. You don't understand her situation and apparently you didn't bother to even read her blog. Congratulations on your ability to Monday night quarterback without having seen the game and without knowing its rules.

4. While you are correct in your assertion that viability is currently calculated at 25 weeks (and painfully wrong to think that babies survive at 20 weeks), you have no nuanced understanding of the difference between viability and quality of life. Viability is simply a useless concept. Yes you can keep human forms alive but can they exist in such a way that their lives conform to some basic deifinition of what it means to be fully human and independent? (By the way, right to lifers are always great about screaming against abortions but always scrouge-like when it comes to providing basic social services for these children. Thanks to you one and all for your hypocrisy!)

To review, you are seriously mis-informed and lacking in sufficient judgment to parent. This is your right. But woe unto any child who has the misfortune to be born to you.

[Stacey]

90.

I think I'm in love with Viv, seriously.

[LEB]

91.

I can't believe this shit - I feel sick just reading what that repulsive little cow has written. Cecily you are a brave and wonderful woman, I'm glad you are alive. I'm so sorry your boys aren't with you.

[AyEnDeeAreEeAyAitch (formerly Andreah)]

92.

I FUCKING HATE HOLLY.

[Leah]

93.

Cecily, as a mother, I can tell you I WOULD NOT risk my life for an unborn baby. Especially when that unborn baby would have no possibility of surviving in the womb after I died! DUH!!!

Besides, who then would take care of my other children? How then could I possibly go on to have another child?

Lunacy, twisted, sick.

I'm glad you had an opportunity to vent though, I know it must be painful as well.

I'm still here, still reading, and still holding onto you.

[Karen]

94.

First and foremost, Cecily, I am so sorry for your loss. I'm an occasional lurker, and your story broke my heart. I can't imagine your grief, and I am stunned beyond belief that anyone is so presumptuous to tell a woman who has just lost two babies that she didn't do enough to save them.

This is for Holly, if she's still reading. I am a bonafide expert in Catholic medical ethics (credentialed and all, though I'll spare you my credentials). As we all know, there is no organization more conservative than the Catholic church on such issues. And Holly, please read this. If you are Catholic, read it several times:

The Catholic Church considers it morally permissible to induce labor prior to viability when the mother's life is in imminent danger.

Cecily's situation clearly falls into this category. It is simply false that the Catholic church thinks that you always save the baby, no matter what.

One more thing--grieving and being bitter aren't the same thing.

Off my academic soapbox now.

[Nance]

95.

I'm not overweight and I still developed life threatening PIH and HELLP. IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT.

My OB (wonderful woman) told me that if we knew what caused PIH and HELLP, we could prevent it. We don't know, so we can't, and we do our damnedest to combat it until we can safely deliver the baby. If that's not possible, then we save the mother. Period.

You did what was right for you, and for your children - including the ones you'll live to have.

[Nicole]

96.

Cecily,
I've been rading your blog for a few months now, this is my first time commenting. I felt the need to tell you that you are the bravest woman I've ever come across. The decision you had to make was the hardest you'll ever have to face, and you made the right choice. No one can ever tell you that it was right or wrong, its what you feel that counts. Please disregard people who feel the need to harass you, and berate you for what you decided for you and your family. Your an amazing woman, I wish you nothing but the best in the future. Sending hugs and prayers.

[Anonymous]

97.

I weighed over 300 pounds when I got pregnant. I only gained 20 pounds the entire time despite eating whatever I wanted. No preeclampsia, no diabetes, no nothin'. My doctor was convinced that I'd come down with both any second yet I never did.

Being overweight doesn't = unhealthy pregnancy. Don't blame yourself. This SO wasn't your fault.

One thing you said in another post is pretty disturbing, though. If George Bush had his way you would have been forced to continue the pregnancy? WTF?

I'm as pro-life as it gets and there is no way I would expect a woman to let her pregnancy kill her, just for the sake of not getting an abortion. If the mother dies, then the baby dies too. In a situation like that, you've got a choice between either one person dying or two. Not a difficult choice to make. Of course the mother should be saved.

Whatever your politics, I think the Dubya comment was a little theatrical not to mention totally false. No pro-lifer would have wanted you to die, hon. Those who say you should have died rather than have an abortion are not really pro-life. I'm not sure what they could be called, but to call yourself a pro-lifer while believing the mother should die just doesn't mesh.

I'm sorry for your loss :(

[Karen]

98.

Just want to clarify my earlier post. I know that Cecily wasn't induced. I just didn't want to add fuel to Holly's fire. My point was just that *even the Catholic church* rejects the views that Holly was pushing in the name of the pro-life movement--that a woman whose life is in danger must 'hang on' until viability and that it is mandatory to use aggressive medical treatment on babies who are not yet viable or only barely viable.

I'm sorry, Cecily. I am just so stunned by Holly's lack of compassion for your grief.

[Liana]

99.

OK "someone" AKA Holly, could you please go to medical school and get your facts straight! You see, I fucking have. I *am* a pediatrician. I have worked in level 4 nurseries. I have watched babies born too soon die in front of me. I KNOW that you are talking out of your ass. OK steroids for the lungs right? So what about the brain? The skin? The other places that need to be properly developed in order for the baby to live.

Have you been in a level 4 nursery? That isn't the cutesy place you see on the TV with the healthy babies. A level 4 nursery is the place that all the babies the other nurseries can't manage go to. Let me tell you, it changes your life forever.

And lets go back to the issue of "viable." Remember "viable" does not mean healthy. "Viable" can mean blind, deaf, seizing, developmentally challenged, respirator dependent, G-tube fed, VP shunt having, with cerebral palsy. I see these kids every single day. Yeah, they were "viable" but for the profoundly mentally retarded with all these medical problems, life sometimes seems more like torture than comfort.

The bottom line Holly is that were you in the situation that Cecily was faced with, both you and your baby would be DEAD since no reputable doctor would have delivered you at that time. You need to shut your mouth and go back to annoying someone else. And if you keep feeling the need to come back and harass someone for no good reason, you should see a shrink, because baby you need help in the worst way.

I am so freaking annoyed with you right now that I am willing to do something my mom the doctor did with her annoying patients. Here are my credentials:

Liana Clark MD
Assistant Professor of Pediatrics
The Children's Hospital of Philadelphia
Fellow of the American Academy of Pediatrics
Board Certified in Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine
Member of the Society for Adolescent Medicine
Multiple published peer-reviewed journal articles and presentations
Manuscript reviewer for several peer-reviewed journals
Grant reviewer for NIH
Respected national lecturer

So those are my credentials. Where the hell are yours?

[Zoe]

100.

Liana, you rock.

So do you, Cecily. I wish all the best for your family.

Holly does not rock, and does not listen.