Birthdays, and about those polygamists...

Tori's second birthday is just three short weeks from Saturday. Last year at this time invitations had been sent, plans made, and much money was being spent on balloons and other birthday crap. This year, ironically when Tori will be much more aware of the day's events, I've done NOTHING. Charlie really wants to get a pony (as I mentioned earlier) but I really think that is just not in our budget these days, and besides, I think that will go over much better at her third birthday.

We'll probably do much the same thing we did last year otherwise. Reserving a pavilion at a nearby park that's next to a playground, and inviting everyone we know for a big barbecue. But this time, we won't spend anywhere near as much on food and cake (we threw out half the cake last year because I didn't want to take it home and eat it). I hope to make it much more low-key and relaxed, and God willing, it won't be anywhere near as hot as it was last year on June 7.

But while I'm making these plans (in my limited way), I find myself thinking about the polygamists in Texas, and those 400 or so children that have been taken from their families and may be missing out on their birthday celebrations.

Recently, all the women that didn't have children under five were released from custody, and most of them returned to the ranch (although some did not). What other option did the state offer these women? Women's shelters. Where they would have no resources to visit their children, or be able to fight to get them back.

I hate this story. I hate everything about it. I hate the abuse that occurred, I hate that the children were taken away, I hate that the women can't see their children, and I hate that those kids are all in foster care. I hate it. There was no good way to deal with this situation, but it seems to me that this way was BAD.

But what I hate most of all is that the women--and the children--are the ones being punished.

The atrocities committed at the compound were done by MEN. NOT WOMEN. If you ask me (of course, no one did ask me), they should have gone in and arrested all of the men and left the women and children the fuck alone, and maybe sent in counselors and other experts to try to find out who was abused and who wants to escape from the compound. If they couldn't arrest the men, they should have at least barred them access to the compound.

I see those women, with their modest dresses and identical hairstyles and I feel it. I feel their agony about being helpless at the hands of the community they live in. But instead of empowering the women, the state waltzed in and further took away the power that these women had--the power of motherhood.

I know that I would move heaven and earth and fight as hard as I know how to get Tori back if someone took her from me. But you know what? I would fight because my mother fought for me. I would fight because I believe women deserve a voice and deserve to be heard and have rights equal to that of any man.

But these women? They don't believe that. They don't have a feminist background, or even a normal non-feminist background. They turn to their men to do the fighting, and this will perpetuate this situation endlessly.

I believe the state of Texas did have the women's best interests at heart when they raided the compound. But I do not believe that this is the right way to handle this. My heart breaks for those women and children.

So while I calmly plan my daughter's second birthday party, I will think about those women and keep them in my prayers. I may not know what the right thing to do about the situation, but there is no doubt about one thing: the whole thing just fucking blows.

Comments

[Kheatherg]

1.

Your right, the whole thing does blow. I'm in the same place you are.... it sucks and i havent a clue as to what should have been done. I hate those kids have literally been thrown into a world they know nothing about and i hate that they knew nothing about the world.

It's all a catch-22.

[Anne]

2.

I know. The whole story makes me want to scream. And all those mothers? Were likely once "child brides" of 50 year old men themselves, forced to marry at age 13 or 14 without any real choice in the matter, so the cycle keeps repeating itself.

Those poor children.

[Pamala]

3.

Yeah I don't think the state is taking into account that these women were most likely abused themselves and that's why they didn't stop it from continuing to happen. Anyhow the whole situation sucks and I also feel bad for the men in the compound that weren't abusive, that just married like "normal" people do and had children (one was on the news recently and his wife wasn't 15 she was 22 and I think he was 23). They weren't doing anything wrong other than living at the ranch. I know we hate cults and all but if they're law abiding people, why are they being punished.

Anyhow 3 weeks until Kaylee's birthday as well and I haven't done a darn thing. I did discuss with my mom whether to send out invitations for the BBQ but that's it. I'm debating balloons, my husband thinks we should make it a little partish. There will only be three babies and one older child there so I'm going to put the kiddie pool out and the kids can play there. Other than that it's going to be us partying and watching the NASCAR race (I'm thinking of doing it on a Sunday).

[Sheri]

4.

It does blow.... severely for everyone involved.

I think that taking the men out of the equation while this was sorted out would've been the ideal thing to do but some of those women can not or will not think for themselves or do what is in their child's best interest and to me, that is sad.

That is why the children were removed... it was in their best interests, until it is figured out what was going on there. I know that is hard to understand when the media show's us those woman's sad faces, longing for their children. That's what we see but what in reality is happening is that young woman, not of age, are being socialized or force into underage marriages. As residents of a single household (sect, cult, whatever), all the children had to be removed, not just some. It would be the same any family situation where abuse was suspected...all the children would be removed.

I do feel bad for the adults in this situation but I feel worse for the kids. Their rights have to come first and be protected.

[Tamara]

5.

I've heard sensationalist reports about many of the children not even knowing how old they are, which... I don't know if that's true. But from what I know about the fundamentalist sect they're living in, these women don't have any way out, because they are the brainwashed and in turn the brainwashers. And you're right, there's no good answer to this. I'd rather the state at least attempt to stop the cycle by moving the kids out, then letting them stay and continue to think that that life of child rape is normal.

[Melessa]

6.

I can't think of any easy answers either, but I do think the way it was handled was completely wrong. Then again, it was a Texas state agency who came up with the plan. Therefore...

[Sonya]

7.

If you want to know more read "Escape" by Carolyn Jessop. She escaped the FLDS a few years ago and her former husband is still quite high up in the organization. She'll confirm everything you believe about the women being victimized themselves. Also from what she says she was not allowed to celebrate her childrens' birthdays while in the FLDS. It was considered too individualistic or something. None of her kid's had had a birthday party until after they got out. Carolyn's story is AMAZING, she is amazing and while the book will make you very, very angry it will also make you very proud of one incredibly strong woman.

[Renate]

8.

I agree, this whole situation blows. To take the children away from their mothers and place them in foster care - there has to be a better way. If the foster care system is in the shape it is here in Washington State, they have done the children no favors.

[Leann]

9.

Keep in mind that we still don’t have the complete facts here. The original charge was dropped after they determined that the call about children being abused was a hoax. Also, so much bad information is coming out of our own Texas CPS and the authorities here.

Here is one correction:
http://www.buzztracker.com/permalink/31/70077280/CPS-Texas-polygamist-sect-teen-who-gave-birth-is-adult

I’m definitely not saying that there hasn’t been abuse at the compound but the authorities have NO evidence and as soon as they determined that the original accusation was false those children should have been returned to their families. If there is justifiable suspicion then a court order needs to be filed which I understand there is none. We are a nation of laws and every citizen has the right to due process.

[victoria]

10.

I agree that it was terribly wrong to punish the women & children who were the victims. The only thing I don't agree with is your assumptions about the women's lack of autonomy within their community and their pain and powerlessness.

The polygamist women may very well be all completely downtrodden. They may see fighting for themselves and their children as "unwomanly" and may defer to their menfolk in everything.

But, generally, power is not so monolithic as that. There are usually rifts, allegiances, currents, and resistance within any organization or group. Even cultmembers have different personalities. Not ALL men are going to be completely dominant, and not all women within a cult are going to be completely submissive in all things. That's just not how organizational behavior works. (Foucault has written a lot about this, but I never really understood it until I watched that television series, "Big Love.")

Please note -- I am NOT saying it's OK to deprive women of the rights to vote; to choose whether, when, and whom to marry; to work and travel and speak and lead.

I am just saying, that even though the woman are all dressed identically, and almost certainly lack the rights I list above, we can't assume they all think & behave identically.

[Amanda]

11.

I've got to play devil's advocate here for a moment.

These folks believe that a woman who submits to her husband is holy and she will go to heaven because of this. There are a lot more religious groups than just this one - including main stream religions - that believe this, so we can't say it's just an FLDS thing.

This group, like the Amish, have chosen to separate themselves from the rest of us. They take literally a Bible passage that talks about being apart from the world. Again, this isn't just an FLDS belief - it's more common than you think.

Third point, as late as 2006, there were states here in the US that allowed a female as young as 12 to marry with the consent of her parents. Right now, the state of New Hampshire allows females as young as 13 to marry with parental consent (court consent may also be required). Several other states allow 14 and 15 year old girls to marry with parental consent. Even Texas, where this saga is taking place, allows both males and females as young as 14 to marry with parental consent. Why aren't we raising holy hell about this? If we believe that young women under the age of 18 aren't able to make these type of decisions, then why aren't these laws being changed in all states? Why are we focusing solely on this small group of people that marry their young women at early age WITH parental consent? If they've forced these young women to marry, then hell yeah, we should charge the lot with coercion and possibly even rape. But if the young women married willingly, knowing they were fulfilling the laws of their religion and with the consent of their parents and/or guardians, why should we care?

Am I outraged that these folks have isolated themselves and their children to such an extent that they don't understand the way modern society works? Yes. Am I angry that these women, of all ages, believe that they must submit to their men? Absolutely. Am I glad that my own daughter will be taught that she can do anything she wants without regard to her gender? Hell yeah. But will I force these folks to change their beliefs because they don't mesh with mine? No.

[sarah]

12.

While the mothers must be sad to be separated, and it is really awful for the children to be separated from their mothers, I'm not sure that removing them was the worst thing that has ever happened to them. The children would not have been married off if the mothers weren't aiding and abetting it and supporting it. Whether that was a result of their own abuse or not, at some point it has to stop and if they won't stop it on their own, I fully support the government stepping in to do so.

[Eliza]

13.

Aye.

[Jaine]

14.

You are right that the atrocities are committed by men but the women are committing atrocities themselves - whether they know better or not. Keep in mind the State of Texas can't get these children to talk with their mother's present and a lot more is now coming out/giving insight to how they are treated and how their daily lives playout. Is is the right thing to do? I don't know... It's a lose-lose situation.

I also recommend reading Carolyn Jessop's ESCAPE especially since she details the physical abuse the sisterwives give all of the children in the household and John Krakauer's Under the Banner of Heaven. There's many other bios as well detailing all of the rampant abuse.

The FLDS doesn't want to have anything to do with us "evil outsiders," yet they will hide behind their religion by dearly cowering behind the said evil people's First Amendment rights. It nauseates me.

[Catherine]

15.

I don't disagree that these women were probably also abused, but at some point you have to take responsibility for your own life and the lives of your children, no matter what was done to you, and these women failed to protect their children from abuse. Those children are much better off in foster care than with a mother who will look the other way while they're being abused.

In my humble opinion. Ahem.

[Melinda]

16.

It is a darned shame how it was handled, considering this is not the first time this has happened. I think the women though should take the help they were offering and not have returned to the compound, a women's shelter is not a bad thing. They will help them. This case made national news; there are so many people willing to help. It will take time but I think they will eventually get better support.

[BrooklynGirl]

17.

In my opinion, there was no power of motherhood in this community--the men had specifically engineered it that way. I don't think anyone or anything could have empowered these women in a timely manner and so I'm glad the state stepped in the way that it did.

I have a friend--well, former friend, I guess--who's in a cult and he's lost the ability to care for himself outside the strictures of the cult. If he had children in his current frame of mind, I would have absolutely no confidence that he could keep his child's best interest in mind at all. I think of him when I see these women.

[Jen]

18.

Under Texas law, a girl can get married at 16 with parental consent.

Thirty-one of the girls between the ages of 14 & 17 have children or are pregnant.

I don't think these mothers should escape resonsibility by the using the excuse that they were abused. The women, just much as the men, embrace that way of life. Therefore the blame should be equally shared. As evidenced by the initial report, help was just a phone call away. They all chose religion over the welfare of their children. I have no empathy whatsoever for these so-called mothers. The blame rests squarely on the shoulders of the members of this sect, not the state of Texas.

If we are to be true feminists we can't render these women blameless simply because they hold the title of mother or they were abused. The same holds true for a an abused wife letting her husband abuse their children. At some point she must do something to protect her kids or she becomes equally culpable.

I say this because I've know many abused women and the psychology of abuse that they themselves willingly participate in the relationship.

[siobhan]

19.

Aaaaaaah! I am glad they were taken away in order to investigate the abuse. I just had a horrific child abuse case at work. So horrible, I will not share it. Sometimes, I am actually upset that abusive biological parents have so many rights.

[Heather P.]

20.

Too bad you weren't in charge of things down there Cecily, because your point about removing the men is right on the money.
Also, commenter Amanda brings up a serious concern, there are some real mainstream religions out there calling for the submission of the wife to the husband. I am thinking of a dear friend of mine who is a college educated Baptist, and buys this way of thinking hook, line and sinker, just because her church tells her too. If that is what it takes to get to heaven I guess I won't be there.

[Mental P Mama]

21.

This story has bothered me from the get-go, and I think your point that the men should have been the ones removed is spot on. I don't think it's too hard to brainwash someone, and they have it down to a science. What gets me more than the hair or dresses is their voices, or lack thereof. Have you noticed how the women barely speak above a childish whisper?
So sad.

On the other hand, plan your party and have a wonderful time. We had a petting zoo/pony for my twins' 4th birthday, and that was a great age. I remember that party as being one of the best.

[RainbowW]

22.

note for the record that age of consent in texas is 17, not 18.

of course this was handled badly. what the fuck do you expect?

you have:

1) an underfunded state agency in the grip of scandal after scandal involving abuse and neglect (like most state child welfare agencies);

2) acting on a complaint that they couldn't possibly know was a hoax ahead of time;

3) being forced to act on the spur of the moment in a situation that didn't permit advance planning -- wait too long, and how many more get abused? your complainant is saying she's in physical danger, so you wait and plan and leave her in it? or you act to save her and hope for the best?

right or wrong, it took a lot of balls to make the decision to yank all those children. could it have been done better? sure. could it have been done better AT THAT MOMENT, given what the state workers knew at the time, and given the procedures they had in place that contemplated things like families of five children? i'm not so sure it could have. sure, we can monday morning quarterback all those decisions, but imo, what we need to look at is:

a) how to move forward from here, in everyone's best interest; and
b) how we can learn from this situation for the next time.

of course they got put into the foster care system, and have no doubt been scattered across the state. remember again, an underfunded agency will fall back on its standard procedures, and this is standard procedure.

what's more, as we learned in the hurricane katrina mess, EVERYONE HAS TO BE SOMEWHERE. that is, everybody needs a place to sleep and toilet and food and some minimal safety. keeping kids in gyms and emergency shelters will work for only so long -- and then where do they go? back to their abusive situation? they still can't sort out who was being abused by whom, and how. so it's okay to have them live on a gym floor meantime?

and then the situation from a legal perspective is totally unprecedented. each kid or family will get their own case, their own lawyer -- hundreds of them, then -- in a county where the court has one judge, who must sort all of this out herself. there were lawyers flying in from dallas and houston on a volunteer basis, on their own dime - not just their own time, to help with this. the judge is doing the best she can to sort all this out too. how do you untangle family relationships where a child identifies four mothers? "keep families together" with 20 kids? how is that possible for the average foster family, or for the average agency without the danger of inflicting yet more abuse?

so sure, it's sad and it's horrible. but please don't piss and moan on the public employees who are doing the best they know how to do in a totally fucked up and insane situation that they've never been trained for, and that their procedures couldn't possibly contemplate.

in fact, the simile that comes to mind is that this is the child welfare worker's version of iraq ... except with better advance planning.

[Shelley]

23.

I don't think that removing the men would have done much. I'm sure men from other compounds would have moved in and taken over. I heard the most chilling quote by one of the women. She just kept repeating that they were happy there and she sounded like she was a robot. No one in the cult was looking out for the male children, that's for sure. They were usual run off to leave more women for the more powerful men. Not to mention that this children were being supported by the state anyway.

[sheilah]

24.

Leann is absolutely right. There was no due process here. There must be probable cause for the state to enter your home. An anonymous phone call is not probable cause.

I said so on my blog earlier that the state is making wholesale generalizations about these people without any evidence to back it up. I detest that. It is wrong to say they are 'all' abusers, which is technically what the state did. Guilty until proven innocent.

It may be years before these children get returned to their parents. Is that 'the best thing for the children'? I don't think so.

[watercolor]

25.

wow. Thank you for a new way to think about this. I have hated it as well, but could never put my finger on exactly the issue but you have voiced it perfectly. sigh. They are in my prayers as well.

[Leah]

26.

Cecily, you know something of my 10 years, so you can probably get that this story really strikes some chordes with me.

Yes, it sucks, it is beyond horrible and sad. But as a society we either decide what occured in that compound is acceptable, or we decide it is not and we put a stop to it.

Most of those women are going to have to undergo some pretty intensive therapy. They are going to have to reach a place where they are willing to choose their children over their god/religion, because their religion teaches that the abuse is acceptable, honorable, godly.

Those women are going to then have to unlearn so very very much and then learn so very very much, in order to function in our society, protect their children, support their children, etc. etc.

To return the kids now, would simply open the door to the cycle repeating for generation after generation. (and it will anyway -new subgroups will pop up. For every one that is destroyed another 3, 4, 5 or more will appear).

On the other hand, what has gone on in that compound goes on in countries all over the world. So the question in my mind becomes one of religious freedoms and where do we draw those lines?

To me, that is the far, far more difficult question. Given my past experience, a part of me would like to outlaw any fundamentalist/extremist type relgious group.

Another part of me recalls what Christianity did to the Native American religions and cultures, (as an example) and leaves me wondering what right the goverment has to interfere in the relgious beliefs of another. What right our government has to be so arrogant as to dictate to the conscience of another.

The sad truth is, we will never be able tto put an end to such groups and such abuses.

Every day our government fees pedophiles to live in our neighborhoods and prey on our children. At the same time, they pat themselves on the back for a job well done because they broke up this one group.

The whole thing is a friggen mess.

[Beth]

27.

One of my biggest problems with this whole mess is that the phone call that started it might have been a hoax. I've seen little blips about a hoax in only a couple of articles. There is a chance that the caller was a woman in another state who had already made another prank call to 911 claiming she was a teenager locked in a basement and being abused.

Anyway, I don't think the government should have stepped in with such force (taking the kids away) without hard, solid, concrete, there-is-no-doubt-whatsoever evidence that abuse was happening. And then, only those that were directly involved in the abuse should have been arrested/removed from the compound.

The government has only played into these folks' mindset that the government is out to get them. The government seems to have proven their teachings correct (at least in their minds).

[Kris]

28.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I don't think the state of Texas had any real good idea what the situation was in the first place and therefore had no real plan. It showed in a real horrifying way for me when they said a whole bunch of those kids ended up in foster care (a lot of the foster parents being Baptists) and the children would be "segregated" from the other children in order to "minimize the impact" of their situation. OMG, my heart goes out to those kids AND the women, many of them so brainwashed since such a young age that the argument that many of the above commenters use about them bucking up and taking control is just bullshit (I hope that just made sense). These poor women don't convert to this life at an older age, they are born into it and are taught from very young.

Holy cow, could I go on. Don't get me started on Caroline Jessop. While I totally believe some of her assertions, I think her "lobbying" (so to speak) for profit should call into question some of her "experiences".

EEK!
K.

[Kathleen]

29.

First, there was due process and probable cause. I live here in Texas. We well remember Waco and no one wants to see that again.

I am a feminist because I do not think that women should be treated like children; either by patriarchal religions or by feminists.

Ten years from now can you even imagine handing Tori over to a man decades older than her? And when the authorities do come in, would you lie to them about names and birthdates?

Having worked for several years in the field of domestic violence and sexual assault, I understand how dangerous it can be to get out. I understand the cycle of violence and the psychology involved.

At the same time, the children have no choice while the women have a very, very difficult one.

But to argue that the "right" solution was to allow the children to stay with a parent who did not protect them and is not protecting them now is not an acceptable solution.

It would be great if all women were empowered enough to fight for themselves and their children but that is not the case. Women abuse children too. I'm not willing to hand out passes because someone is a mother. It's not enough.

[amy]

30.

Very interesting observation and you are SO dead on. The MEN from the compound should have been removed. Not the women and children.

[Amy]

31.

(My apologies for this looong comment.)

I'm with you. All I can think about is how it must feel to have your children ripped from you when you're doing nothing more than living the life you have always lived (I won't get into the legality of their lifestyle... though I will add... the law about teenagers getting married with parental consent, I suspect, was more about allowing a teenaged girl to marry a teenaged boy... not her 50 yr old uncle who is already married to 4 other women... but I digress).

I live in Texas, so we've seen a lot of the media coverage on this, and my mother and I have been round and round about it. My mother was abused as a child and felt very much that her mother *let* it happen. So, she sees these children as being abused and their mothers as allowing it. She rejoiced at their being taken away from their mothers.

But I have 3 small children and can't imagine what it would be like to have them taken away, especially if I believed I had done nothing wrong. Even if we see their lifestyle as abusive, the women themselves don't know any different (or can't see a way for it to be different given the circumstances*). So, how exactly would they save their children from it?

*I'm a college history professor, and one of the things I'm always trying to get my students to realize is that we can't judge people for acting rationally within the context of their own society. The African woman might not want her girl to be circumcised--she remembers the pain, hates the thought that she was mutilated and her daughter will be too, thinks the whole system is unfair. But, for her daughter to be a viable wife, and therefore a mother, for her to be an active part of their own society, the girl must have it done (and I'm ignoring here the larger question... think about the one mother trying to make the one decision). What would you do? Would you jeopardize your daughter's entire adult life, her livelihood, her happiness, a chance at love, companionship, etc. over the circumcision? Would you make her effectively an outcast?

This is how I see the FLDS women. Sure, they might have hated having sex at 16 with an older man. They might hate sharing their husbands with other women. They might hate having a baby every year. But how do you not lead your own daughters into that same slaughter when the option is... what? Running into a world that you've been taught all your life is evil, decadent, sinful? Sure, a handful do it. But can we expect every woman to? I don't think so. I think these women act as most people do who are forced to participate in a societal ritual that hurt them as they went through it... but it being the ritual that makes you a member of the society, you push your daughter along.

[Kathleen]

32.

Reading these comments, I want to address some of it:

1. It does not matter if the initial phone call was a hoax. If one of your neighbors made a hoax call that someone was robbing your house, the police arrived to find no robbery but you being beaten, would you want them to leave?

The police had been working on this case for years. The phone call was a tipping point. And while on the ranch, the police kept in contact with a judge to get search warrents as they went along.

2. The idea that chidren should only be removed if there is "no-doubt-about-it" evidence is absurd. That sort of standard, which is applied in no other kind of crime, is what keeps women and children stuck in abusive situations. Reasonable standards are just and essential. Nothing but "no doubt about it" is unreasaonble in the extreme.

3. Women do join these cults as adults.

4. I have no problem with interfering with someone else's "religion" when it involves the systematic rape of girls. That children should be some guilt offering for Americas past/present sins is misplaced, to say the least.

I just do not understand the drive to paint these women as helpless good mothers. I hope, against hope, that they all can heal but until these women decide to choose their children over their beliefs, the children must be kept from their mothers. It's horrible, but not as horrible as raising girls to accept rape and casting "extra" boys out with no skills for the modern world.

[Dawn]

33.

I'm not an expert on this situation, but obviously, even though it is generally not a good thing to separate children from their mothers, the state may not have really had any other option once they entered the compound.

Plus, since they found something like 30 girls between 14-17 who were pregnant or had already had a baby, their investigation was justified, even though the initial call apparently turned out to be a hoax. If the age of consent is 16 or 17 in Texas, then the fathers of those children committed a crime by fathering them in the first place.

Also, I believe that one of the issues with the FLDS group is that because almost all of the women are unmarried in the eyes of the law, they (and their children) are eligible for state aid. So, the state was probably already footing the bill for taking care of the kids already. That doesn't make taking them away from their mothers better, but it is such a screwed up situation that it may turn out to be for the best, if even some of those children end up getting out of that cult.

To the person who referred to the Amish, please remember that while the Amish are separate, they are entirely unlike the FLDS. The Amish interact with the outside world as necessary (business concerns, mainly), but maintain their separate, "plain" lifestyle. They are not living in walled compounds, they give all their members the opportunity to leave at any time (I actually know some former Amish people) and I've never once heard about Amish families marrying off their adolescent children or dumping their teenage boys at the compound border. The Amish certainly aren't perfect (no one is), but they don't deserve to be compared to the FLDS group.

[Elle]

34.

It scares the crap out of me that those children were all taken away with so little evidence. How long before any behavior that deviates from the culturally specified norm results in having your kids taken away? When I was younger I refused to say the pledge of allegiance in school because my parents said I didn't have to, nowadays I wonder if that would get someone reported.

There are just sweeping generalizations made about these people based on hearsay and very little hard evidence, and that's enough to take their children away from them. Just because there have been a few high profile cases of abuse does NOT mean that it's completely infected the place. Should ALL Catholic priests be banned from ever going within 100 yards of any children? Should all parents who take their children to Catholic Church be threatened with the removal of their children?

How far into our homes are we willing to let the state go in order to "protect" us from ourselves? At what point do these people have the right to say that this is how they want to live, and we can believe them???

[Tracee]

35.

Lets remember that these women (in the name of their "religion") basically allowed their children to be abused. It's what they believed in and were indoctrinated with. Call it brainwashing if you wish.

Therefore, I believe the State did the right thing in separating most mothers from their children.

I have to believe that with some time and distance...these women are able to understand that what they allowed to happen to their children is just plain wrong...

I hope they eventually can be reunited with their children and will make better decisions and will choose a life outside of their "religion".

No matter how you look at it, what these men did to their wives and children is just plain wrong...even in the name of "religion".

[Chickenpig]

36.

Right on, sister! As usual, the men are getting off scott free. WTF?

Of course, like everything involving brain washing, the mothers of the teenage girls being married off are complicit. They raise their daughters to be this way because it's all they've ever known. Removing the men from the girls' lives would not be enough in this case...unfortunately. The whole thing is just sad, sad, sad.

[diana]

37.

Serveral people have commented here about how there was no probable cause in this situation. As a mother whose child was taken away for sometime it makes me think of the moment they took her. In my case the police officer that took my daughter stated " I can not leave a child with someone who looks like you" at the time in 1995 where I lived it was not normal to have blue hair alot of piercings running around dressed like a gypsy. Did they actually know what was going on in my home no. did they do the right thing YES!! At the time I was extremly addicted to Meth. It forced me to get help in order to get my daughter back. But at the moment they took her they had no idea this was the situation they took her based solely on the way I looked at the time,If they had actually know what was going on do you think it would have been diffrent hell ya they would have taken her with out blinking an eye. What I hope comes out of this whole mess is that for those girls that have been praying to thier god to get them out of this situation they realize that thier prayers have been answered. It is not like what the FLDS is totally secret. Have any of you heard the stories from the LOST BOYS these are young men that get kicked out into our horrible world so that the young woman can go to older men. They are excomminicated and thrown into a world with no money no skills to fend for themselves. No family support. All for the sick practice of giving these young ladies to older men. If the mothers of this sect want us to think they are living gods way They are full of shit becouse they know this practice is wrong but they allow thier sons to be thrown into the world for this reason. This sect tries to hide behind the constitution regarding religious freedoms. But their leader Warren Jeffs is now in prison for his actions. There was also mention of the amish at least they give the kids a chance to choose when they come of age they get to go experience the real world if THEY DECIDE to stay amish or stay in main stream society at least it a choice they are given it is not decided for them.
The only thing to do know is hope the real truth gets out.

[Charlise]

38.

I think the whole idea of religion is crazy...but that isn't the point here I guess. I know what being in a cult-ish like atmosphere can do to self esteem, and most of these mothers were so young...and yet, and yet - well, they were parents. Of kids. And they let their kids be raised in that insane environment. And some of them let their daughters become victims - and to me, that is unacceptable. As a parent it is our duty to protect our children, to keep them safe from harm. If we are not doing that, we are failing, and someone should call us on it, right?

Now - I was not there. I was not in that situation, so I don't know what I would have done. I may have been to scared to break away - to take my kids and leave...

It is always easy for me to poke holes and point fingers when I am not "in it" - you know what I mean?

[Nancy]

39.

i just finised carolyn jessop's book Escape as well

it is an amazing view into the flds community

i feel that the women need to get some education about outside the flds...im sorry their children were taken.....i dont nec agree with that....i dont think they know any better and are in fear of g-d, hell and their prophet

they need help

[Amanda]

40.

Let's play a game of pretend. Let's pretend that all of the women - not just the obviously adult women, but all of the females at the FLDS compound - consented to their marriages. While we still don't know if this is true - let's just play along for the sake of argument.

I'm putting myself into this place too. Marrying my uncle or a much older cousin sounds pretty icky to me, but let's think about why I'm doing it. My religious belief is that only in a sacred marriage can I fulfill the commandments of my God and my prophets and thus go to heaven upon my death. I am taught this from a young age. I see my older sisters and cousins married and everyone is joyous - they are fulfilling their destiny. Later, I see those same sisters and cousins rejoice when it's announced that I'll be married soon. Even if I'm scared - which I'm sure I would be - I think this must be a pretty great thing because everyone is so happy and everyone praises our God and our prophet for their holy intervention into my life.

We'll jump ahead a bit: As a recently married woman, I've been through the marriage night and, while it was scary, I survived it and I now have a different status in our community. When I find out that I'm pregnant, again, all the elders in the community sing my praises. My sister wives take care of me and coddle me during morning sickness. With the birth of my child, I am told that I have fulfilled every expectation of my God and my community. I've not been trained for anything else. Marrying and having children and being a good member of the family and community of believers is all I've ever known.

Put yourself in the shoes of a young woman who's been raised this way. Try to take away the experiences that make you who you are now. You may think you'd make a different choice, but the likelihood is that you wouldn't.

[Rachel]

41.

As feminists, don't we have to ask why we're so willing to assume the women are brainwashed/abused and the men are brainwashers/abusers? It seems to me that at least some of those men (if not many/most) started as little boy babies of child-mothers. Should we assume that they grew up to be bad abusive men or that they, too, were subject to brainwashing. As their parents before them and their grandparents before that. My point is, it's all circular. Those women, by and large, believe that what they are subjecting their children to (girls and boys) is sanctioned, if not mandated, by God. I would suspect the men felt so too. They believe that God has sanctioned/demanded/provided for these marriages and family groups.

There are many other cultures who do the same thing, whether we approve of it or not. Many indigenous cultures, tribal cultures, have similar family groups. Child brides and all. I think we come at this from a very Western point of view -- who's right, who's wrong, who can we lock up, who can we fix.

This also explains why the government didn't have too many options with removing all the children. Part of the culture is to mistrust the establishment, in that, we are all godless and likely evil. Consequently, mothers, father and children have not been truthful about their names, ages or family relations. Something they believe, again, they're doing out of the need to protect their holy way of life.

All of this is merely to say that I'm not sure what Texas could have done if they were going to deal with this issue. It seems to me that they could either walk away (by determining that this was a religious community unto itself) or it could dive in and try to straighten it all out, as messy as that is.

I, too, feel for those children. I'm sure they're terrified and confused. But I also feel for the mothers. And the fathers. I believe their worst fears have come true for all of them. The outside world has come in and is trying to destroy their way of life.

I'm really not condoning their practices, but I do think we should try to have compassion for the whole community.

[G-mom]

42.

Texas: I so agree! You really said a mouthful with that bit of posting.
B-day: Daughter always has a big giant BBQ and everyone has a blast. Since 3 of the four are in the cold to chilly months we just let them tear around her property. 1 is a July b-day so we would rent one of those giant water slides for $200, worth every damn penny! Kids and adults alike love it!

[Mary]

43.

I don't think I have ever told you, Cecily, that I work in the child welfare field. Loved Rainbow's comment. This was an incredibly difficult call and appears, from the media reports, to continue an incredibly difficult case.

I have read that when Yearning for Zion (what they called the compund) was created, there was a call by Warren Jessop for other polygomous groups to allow him to "take" some of their children under the age of 6 to Texas -- and those parents let him take a number of children. Jessop felt that kids under 6 were not yet touched by the outside world. So, if this is true, some of those kids are NOT the biological children of the people they are calling mom and dad. How can the state now return a kid to a person they know is not the bio parent, without any documentation of agreement from the bio parent?

I have also read that, when being interviewed, the mothers and kids would change their stories from one interview to the next. When the CPS workers started giving them identifying bracelets to make sure that they could go back and tell who was who, they took the bracelets off and put them on other people. In that type of scenario, with mothers trying to prevent information from being disclosed, how can you keep mothers with the kids?

So, how do you prove how old someone is to see if they were under the age of consent? It's virtually impossible to prove how old someone is by medical testing. How can CPS rely on the fact that the birth certificate that is presented for a particular person is indeed that person's birth certificate?

Just a few thoughts on all of the problems. My issue/concern is that I am not sure why it was necessary to remove ALL of the kids. I think you could have been safe and just removed the girls and boys between 11 and 18, and continued to investigate....but as Rainbow so eloquently said, I am Monday Night quarterbacking there.

[tina]

44.

these poor children. could you imagine being dragged away from your mom? could you imagine being 7 or 8 and being told that everything you have been taught is wrong? could you imagine being taken away by people that you have been taught are "evil"? how scared they must all be. I know the gov't needed to "protect" these children, but there had to be a better way... these children are going to need therapy for a long long time. Sadly, they probably won't get it.

[Maya]

45.

hi Cecily,
I used to represent children & parents in TX who were involved in termination suits ... and ANY parent in TX who disputes the allegations of abuse or neglect and is negligent is entitled to an appointed attorney to represent them in the termination case and to help them get their child(ren) back. I'm not saying a women's shelter is a fun place to live, but the women are entitled to receive help in fighting for their children. They are also entitled to a number of free services including counseling and job training and a bunch of other stuff. Of course, they also have to jump through a lot of hoops to get their kids back.

Anyway, I don't think the situation is quite as you've presented it in your post.
Maya

[Maya]

46.

I wanted to add just one more thing: foster care is not perfect, but it would be a whole lot better if more people signed up to be foster parents.

Maya

[Jen]

47.

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but the standard of evidence and the requirement of probable cause is different in child welfare cases. It is LOWER.

Any anonymous phone call IS enough to provide probable cause to search a residence and forced removal of child. In fact, the in most states, in calls to child abuse hotlines (usually called Central Registries), the caller does not have to give any personal information. You only need to provide a location, date of abuse, and some identifying information of the abused and abuser.

And unless the abuse is of a sexual nature or severe enough to cause death or serious bodily harm, it is not a criminal issue.

And while in this case, I can feel for most parents having a child they love removed (I work in foster care), these women ARE responsible, maybe not in the same way the men are, but they are.

[Painted Maypole]

48.

this was a great post. on NPR the other day they had a story about a woman who had been taken from one of these compounds pregnant, and once she had the baby they took the baby away from her and put the baby in foster care. HELLO?!?!? It doesn't matter who the daddy is at this point, and if the mother was abused. When a mother gives birth to a child both mother and child NEED to be together. My heart was breaking for this child who was put straight onto formula, while the mother's milk was likely painfully coming in. The mother who longed to hold her child in her arms. And maybe some day they'll be reunited. Maybe. But they cannot get that time back. Who on earth has the right to separate them? What ill has the mother done but happen to have been born into this mess? My heart breaks, too.

[liz]

49.

I agree. Also, since women & kids outnumbered the men by quite a bit, it would have been easier to just remove the men.

[Anne]

50.

I just wanted to follow up on the comment someone made earlier about how many other cultures practice polygamy as a "mainstream" way of life. I agree, but if we want to make this argument we have to follow its logic: polygamy grew primarily out of a need for certain members of society to be taken care of (e.g., in very patriarchal societies, if a woman lost her husband and thus was not able to support herself or her children, or if many men were lost to war thus shrinking the pool of available prospective husbands, etc.). The men that did take additional wives were those that were wealthier and more powerful and could prove they could take care of extra wives. Contrast this to the FLDS, in which most of the women were receiving TANF (welfare) because their marriages weren't legal and therefore they were able to apply for state funding as a single parent. The reasons they had to apply for TANF? Because their husbands could not afford to support all the wives and children they had. Nope, sorry, not cool. If this group wants to live apart from the mainstream society, that's fine, but not if children are being abused, and especially if children are being abused at taxpayers' expense.

[Rach]

51.

Wow. I usually disagree with just about everything you say, you know that. :) But this post, I agree 150%. It makes me ill. And it's scary that children can be taken away with so little evidence.